{ "text" : "
\n Kim Crayton: Todo
\n Simone Haas: Welcome to the hashtag called the scene podcast. The show focused on the strategic disruption of the status quo and technical organizations, communities and events. We
\n Kim: Oh, hello,
\n Simone: Everyone. And welcome to
\n Kim: Today's episode of the
\n Simone: Hashtag called the Scene podcast. I'm very happy to have someone I met, recently when I was at the James Caan. You, she has played a pivotal role in, all it hurts to speak for herself. All right, Simone, introduce yourself.
\n Kim: Hello? My name is Simone. Andre? Yeah. I'm Yeah. Organizer off Jay's country. You and part of the team off CSS country. You on neighborhood? He's CEO. So this is what I'm doing. And I'm living in Berlin, and I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me, Kim.
\n Simone: All right. Thank you for joining us. So I always start the show with two questions. Why is it important to cause a scene? And how are you causing the scene?
\n Kim: So I think stories off discrimination, exclusion and violence are often or most of the times perceived as individual cases by causing a scene, they become visible as part of her big structural problem, or more than one like racism and white supremacy and others.
\n Simone: And so how are you causing a scene?
\n Kim: So I was thinking about this question since I listened to the other podcast and since I'm not a very public person, and I'm not very active on social media and not entering any stage to fight injustice, and therefore my first stop to this question was, I don't call the scene that I am thankful for everyone who does, since it helped me learn to help me a lot to learn about white supremacy in my own internalized racism in last year's. But if causing a scene also includes invisible work that is not accessible to the public, I would say that my contribution is to listen, to learn and to use my privilege and my resources as a white woman toe open doors for those less privileged. If causing a scene also means to do background work by using my powers, the CEO and organized off a big tech conference, then I'm happy to support causing a scene to making sure marginalized Royces get hurt.
\n Simone: OK, that was almost brought tears to my eyes because and I'll say this, and this is why I get so frustrated with a lot of white people. They think that causing a scene or making a change or standing up has to be these grand gestures where they have to be in the forefront and their voices have to be heard. And I'm like, No, we're doing this little by little, step by step, increment by increment. And it is very important the background work that that happens because the background work enables people like myself to take the stage. The background work helps people like myself to feel safe and taking the stage. It's all those things that you don't see that are necessary in order for the voices and the messages, that challenge white supremacy and racism and discrimination and all these other things. Eso thank you for that. You're the first person to mention the quiet, silent, disruptive work is like, it reminds me I don't know why popped in my head. That reminds me of when I if people have not figured this out yet because I've said it a number time. I am a World War two history buff. I watch I would watch anything on the road to history and reminds me of the French Resistance. That they had they had already lost the war. The battle, Germany was had already taken over France. But it was the resistance. These little bitty disruptive, blowing up bridges doing things that just was just like, Oh, my God, they're thorn in my side kind of thing. Those things are very important because they dissed, they slow progress of harmful behavior and they helped to distract. So that other work that has a different I'm not going to see him or important impact that has a different impact can take place. So that's what I thought about. So you're doing the resistance work.
\n Kim: OK, Thank you. That's good to hear. Yeah s Oh,
\n Simone: Yeah, Yeah, it all matters. It all matters. And so there's a There's a specific reason I have Simone on the podcast, and I thank you so much for coming on. I spoke at, Js coffee you last year and I was welcomed back this year to hold my hashtag called the same conference. And this is and I wanted to have this conversation because, as you stated, Js cough you is has been one of the largest conferences international conferences in the tax base. And when you again this is this this disruptive resistance work. When this conference does something, it really has a ripple effect throughout the whole community. And and that's good, better indifferent. And I like Thio. Just have some conversations about the things that you've done. That went well, that didn't go well that you learn from And that's why I want to have this conversation. So I'm gonna talk about two specific things that you would not talked about when I was in Berlin and then anything else you'd like to share because I want this to be an opportunity for organized event organizer is to understand they have not only a responsibility to make space is safe, but even in their efforts, they will fall short. And it's about getting up and learning and saying, OK, we that didn't work. Well, let's let's let's check on the people who were harmed. Let's make sure we have taken care of that before we move forward, but we still need to move forward. It's not a stopping point. So the two incidents that, took place Well, first of all, already, I'm sure because it always happens, and I just didn't hear about it. I'm sure Last year when I spoke, well, I'm not gonna say that 99.9% of the time. When I speak of the conference, I am reported for a code of conduct violation 99.9% of the time. I didn't hear about anything from your conference, so I'd be surprised if it didn't happen. But that's me causing a scene. My first slide is always the name of my talk. The second slide is all my social media handles. And my third slide is a content warning that I'm here to make white people uncomfortable. And so, inevitably, there's someone who reports me for this was inappropriate. This made me I mean, the very things that I warned them about, and they could never point a finger at anything specifically that I've done to break a code of conduct, cause I never do. It's about them being uncomfortable with the content, the messenger and the message. So again. So I again, I don't know if anything happened last
\n Kim: Year, so no, it
\n Simone: Didn't. Oh, wow. That's e could tell you that was one of all of them last year that I did not get a e a report. OK, so, so this year I was very excited for two reasons. First of all, that, not even being a person who was speaking on the stage of that conference. The fact that this community wanted to make sure that I was there again to provide to put on my conference speaks a lot to, your the team's commitment to having marginalized voices, represented and not just represented, but support it and support it financially. That is a very important thing. It's like you. These are, they want these events they want, you know, they'll invite you, and then you have to spend your money or you invite you. And then, they have no provision for anything, and it's like, No, I'm there. The work. I don't understand this. So that's one thing. So I was coming to do my conference, and then I hear about that. Oh, my God. This conference or they set a conference organizer are gonna have a BIPAC space, and so ah, by Pakistan by pox pants or Black indigenous people of color. And so it's gonna be a by pox, but bipac in tech, so by b o b i p o c e man, that's an acronym. And so I was so excited about this because I was like, Oh, my God! The one of the largest Conferences International Conference is creating a space just for Blacks, indigenous and people of color just to be and breathe and have fun. And so I actually made jokes before I left. I was like, I'm gonna take my microphone because I know they're gonna be white people outside and be pissed off. And I'm just gonna be so why are you mad? So why are you mad? So I just, like, kind of joked about it. Ah, needless to say, that experience was what I thought it would be Times 10 when it comes to emotional harm. Eso that's the one incident and the other incident was, and this is why I immediately the next day talks about being mindful of the third party vendors that you bring into your spaces. And there wasn't we were switching over from CSS calm to Js comp that night there was a number of us was sitting on the inside chilling out because they've been raining. But we were just sitting there and join ourselves and a security guard who, was his behavior was completely inappropriate for a tech conference. First of all, because it was like a bouncer, but it was just just racially charged and just just gross on guy flipped the fuck out. So those two that happened, and I want you to see, because I really want people to understand. OK, we'll start with the security because I'll give my side of it. And then I really want you to talk. About what? You? Because I didn't even know this until you and I talked what you as a team did to prepare for this. And it's still happen because this is what people think. It's like they think that, you know, you do this one thing and it's gonna be all good. No, this thing's happened. We're dealing with human beings, and so you have to have provisions in place. You have to have strategies and all these things to ensure that the most vulnerable are taken care of. So what happens? OK, so we're sitting there with chilling. Everybody's enjoying themselves. And then I wanna say specifically that one of the very few white people that I really, really trust literally with my life was sitting right next to me, and he even failed in that moment. So the the gentleman comes up and says, Hey, how he comes up, it was like he was at a bouncer at a bar. So everybody already checked that energy. Like, why is he approaching us this way? So is so When my friend saw it, he was the only white guy at the table. What he should have done was corrected the dudes behavior then because it was inappropriate for the space. But in his thinking, when I talked to me yesterday, he was like, Oh, it's just some guy a bouncer at You know, he's acting like a but I'm just going to ignore it. But when you have privilege, you can ignore that. I have a different experience with people like that, coming to me with that kind of energy. So he's like, Yeah, you need to go outside blah, blah, blah. So we're getting We're I mean, literally, he goes. So we're at a picnic table, so picnic tables aren't very long. So he gets it goes from the head of the picnic table to the middle of the picnic table before we could even collect are things he's like, I'm not going to tell you again. And I have flipped the fuck out because what it felt like to me, it just triggered that thing in me When some cop or some person who tells me first about I have no right to be in a space, I have to move when they tell me to move or or and not or and there will be consequences. But I'm not moving fast enough. And so I just literally disconnected myself because I just went The hell I just started screaming. And I'm just like, I'm not dealing with this in Germany. This is not what the fuck I came here for. And, one of the other organizer's came in. And being a white dude did not know how to handle the situation, in an effective manner, and all of a sudden you came out of nowhere and you looked me in the eye and you're like and it was all about me. It was that you you you were doing what I would do with my students when they used to feel about. It's like, OK, give me eye contact. Come on. Focus, focus. Come on. I know. I see you in there. I got you. You're safe. Talked to me and you did that. And it calmed me down. And it made me. It helped me to. And and you did it in the way that did not discount my experience. You did it in the way that says I recognize what's going on here. I support you. I protect you, and I'm gonna handle this. And you're a sole intention about So I was like, I'm not. I'm leaving. I'm leaving. Like, but you're coming back, right? I mean, you know, it was like on and it was all about me, which it needed to be in that moment, because I waas now, mind you, there were other marginalized people, the table. But I was the one that just it was just It was just trickling. So talk about what that was like for you. How we got to that point, The things you put in place before that, or tried to put in place. Yeah. Just talk about that.
\n Kim: Yeah. Oh, so the situation. So in this moment, I was just trying Thio. Yeah. What you just said to make sure that you feel safe again, that there's somebody you can do something. So what I did next to the so after we talked was getting that security guy out off the scene. So he didn't come back and he was not allowed to come back. So actually, it was a very emotional moment for me because we worked a lot to get those situations or to avoid those situations at the conference. We had already to reported incidents in 2018, also with people of color and moved on with the security team, which is, which stuck to the one you at that time. So we had no choice about the security team, and we were. So the the happy case was it was reported because in both situation where it was one person involved, which we personally knew so or no. So, they reported us the situations where the security was. Yeah, also are quite behaving the same manual. Like going to the people of color first, getting them out very rudely, saying things twice. And that was very bad behavior on. And I was in 2018, kind of desperate because I couldn't do anything. So I was trying to reach out to the head of security. I was trying to reach out to anybody who was involved, and we had no no power to to do something to change the persons who are working there to get someone fired to get someone reported. We even didn't know the names off the person who were involved into this incidents. So what we decided shortly after the conference in 2018 was that we want to have more power about the security team, that we want to talk to them, that we want to make sure that we get a team for our event, which is, yeah, sensitive, not racist at all. Eso we were just started starting to think about what we can do. There were a lot of meetings, afterwards, with the venue. And so as I already told you the security team was stick to that venue so we had no choice on DWI. Were discussing internally how to how to handle that. I have to say that for this topic as well as other topics for this conference. A great help. Waas Twohy who joined our team Yeah, in summer 2018 to prepare 2019 conference on Do we helped me a lot too. Thio get the or to sort the thoughts about the the fact that what racism or what? What triggers people of color in those situations? Because, as I already told you, I'm I'm learning about white supremacy and about my internalized racism and I'm trying to see all the incidents and I'm trying to to see the situations, But off course I don't see anything so too and I talked a lot and we talked about how security personal should be to make sure that people feel safe. So we came to that point that we could make sure that the security team itself would be trained. So we wanted Thio get an anti racism workshop for them so that they they care or that they are trained in terms off what racism is and what white supremacy is in, what their powers. So that was with a team off the venue. They didn't want to make the workshop because off. Yeah, for reasons because they didn't care. They wanted to make their own workshop, which was not enough for us. So we were able to change the team after they were not fulfilling the conjuring. We get two teams on on the way at the venue, and that was good. So it was fine. We had new team. They were trained before. We didn't have the time to set up all the workshop things we wanted. But we make sure in different meetings that we can have, that we got a full overview over people who were involved into the security T We knew their faces, we knew their names and they knew us. So I was the first contact person for the security team. And, of course, the rest of the organizer team too. So but I was in contact most of the time, also at the same time to iwas creating the awareness team which was there to make sure that people's eso attendees, have one person who gives them emotional support or support and whatever cases they need, to make sure that there are not only security people to talk to in case something. Right. So this is what we did before 2019 days conferences as convey you. It was a lot of work, and we we were like, OK, this is kind of an experiment. We don't know how that works in the end, but, we This is what we could do to make sure that we don't just leave things that they are and that we can make sure that there is a sensitivity for the topic that everybody has to. Yeah, eso actually, they had to sign our code of conduct in which we state that we are that racist slurs and language and also a ballistic embolisms, and those things are not allowed. So we we try to make them aware Azaz good as we can. But the thing is that and this is also the experiment. So we had two teams and I didn't know how that how this will work out. Also we I was a contact person. But off course I didn't know how this will work in the end, because during an event, things are going very fast sometimes Onda, we couldn't train those situation as you were describing. So the transition from CSS con for you to J is con for you is also it's always a bit stressful because the when you has to be empty at some point to prepare Julius Kahn for you. So the C s s con for evening event is then planned to be outside. Unfortunately, in that evening, it started to rain, So nobody wanted to go outside off course. Eso we We were in the situation that we had to make sure that people have to go outside into the rain and not come back on day that in a friendly manner. So I talked to the security personal that they should be around in case something, went wrong. And but they weren't allowed to talk to our attendees directly at that time. And that broke well, so there was no problem. But by the time that we we were in stress, so we needed support. So what? I try to make sure that the awareness team is around to talk to two people. Sitting on the table, the security team, If they talk to someone, they had to be very friendly. So the person which was eso the person who tried to get you out off the room, he even was not a security person. Unfortunately, So I didn't talk to them before. Hey, was kind of the fire protector people, and I wasn't aware that Oh, I didn't have in mind that he would go into our into the into the situation and talk to our attendees. So, in short, everything went wrong. So what I did was I was talking to the person that he got out, and also I was talking the other day the next day, two to the head off security, and they made sure that the person won't come back on bond that everybody was briefed again. So what we had So it was such
\n Simone: Hard work
\n Kim: On. But as I said in this situation, I was just disappointed that these things happen again. But we had more power. It was hard work to to get the conversation with the security team. It was very hard work to get into the structures off the security company. So this is nothing I've ever done before. I've never went into companies who are working in these fields and finding out how they work and with whom they work. But it was, Yeah, it was the work we've done and what we could do in the end at least, was handling the situation so that we didn't have to thio tell you that the person is still around and that we can't do nothing. So this is the small success in this situation, even if it was very disappointing for all of us that this happened again.
\n Simone: Hello, all. For many of you, 2020 has turned out to be the year that I've been waiting for the moment for you to realize that fundamental, systemic changes necessary for us to move forward as an inclusive society. Many of you have also realized the importance of protecting and supporting independent voices like my own enforcing this necessary change. This work requires independence because the status quo i e. Corporate blackface doesn't change when power, privilege and money can be leveraged against the truth. Which means that your financial support via becoming a hashtag cause a scene sponsor is required. Please visit hashtag called the scene dot com and become a monthly sponsor off the community. Thank you and have a wonderful day
\n Kim: Thing
\n Simone: Situation.
\n Kim: Even if it was very disappointing for all of us that this happened again. Yeah, so this is the security story. I I hope I was kind of understandable. It's kind of weird, actually.
\n Simone: No, it's actually, it's great, because again, what it highlights is there will be all the planet in the world cannot stop. What am I trying to say? Even with all the planning up front, things happen. It's about moving as quickly as possible to minimize harm. And that's just the bottom line. It's like harm will happen. And this is that This is the thing that I need white people to understand and tech you will cause harm. You have been trained to cause harm. What I need you to do is once you've been told that you're causing harm, just like Simone says, she's learning. She never would have you had this person on the team who helped you see a lot of things that you wouldn't have recognized before. As soon as someone tells you that there is harm being caused, it's time to act. It's not a time to sit back and debate about Well, what do you mean, no? I'm being home. I'm actively being harmed in this situation. Let's move. You need to get to moving, and this is one of the things that really pisses me off with these people in Tech. These people with these large followings on social media and you know they're they're making these six and seven figure incomes who get on these social media platforms and complain about the fact that they can't do and behave and say the things they've done before because their feelings are hurt. When they say something, they someone tells them it's inappropriate and their feelings are hurt. I'm like, Dude, did you not think about what you said and how, If someone's telling you that that you've done something and your feelings were hurt them telling you means that somebody else has been harmed, not their feelings have been hurt, but they've been actively harmed and your heart there harm is not equal to your feelings. So I really appreciate when you said you were it was a upsetting experience for you. Also. And in that moment you made it about me. You didn't make it about you. And this is the first time even hearing that. How? Because you were in control. You're like when I again when I was a teacher. When something happened, I go straight into Let's get it done. Then later I deal with my feelings. E, remember what One of one of my youngster at the time I was doing elementary school and we were in a park and a little girl came down the slide on her knee and cut open her whole knee. I am Didn't was not prepared for all of that, but I scooped her up in my arms. I'm looking down on her knees, her knees legs swinging. It's gaping open. I'm like, Oh my God! But I can't hurt to with E. We call the ambulance, You know all that. And then afterwards she's gone. And I'm like, What the fuck that I just dio was like, Oh my God, I could see her bone That was so gross. E didn't want her to freak out because, you know, and it's that thing it z In those moments, you have to develop the skills to take care of the person who's hard, and then you deal with making sure that you are OK. That's true. And that's what you That's why I was so impressed with that situation eyes because you you did that. And and the fact that you can say on this show, you know, I'm learning because everybody keeps thinking this is something you know, You have to know that there's an ABC Emanuel, you take a test and you passed white supremacy one on one. No. OK, yeah. So now let's talk about the BIPAC space because that was the bigger for me. The greater harm. And I think this is where the most white people white people caused the harm and the majority of them had no flu or even cared about the harm they were causing. So this story is so I get there, let's see it. So this is gonna be a three day, three day of three days of this. It's so you have the awareness team and they're mainly people of color and also there. From what I saw, there were a lot of them weren't even in the tech space. They just volunteered to do this. Yeah, so they may not have been aware of how exclusionary this space can be and how, Tech folx, I think they know everything and and and read. And so they saw if they're on Internet at social media, all what they saw was a hyper off the conversations that people try to get you dragged into online. So you have these innocent folx who just decided to Hey, we're gonna attend this thing, I'm gonna volunteer. We're doing this thing. And so the awareness team were at the door of this space, and so what? It waas and it was I'm gonna be honest. It wasn't even a great space. It was. It was it was in the back. There was no air conditioning, but it was our space, and we loved every minute of it. So we would go. You have to have a band to get in. And you have to just be a Black, be Black, be a person of indigenous background or person of color, and it wasn't even that it wasn't like checking your I d or anything. It was just like, you know, Hey, if you're a person of color, put this band on and your you could only come in. And so there was programming that the team for that space had created for us and it was on the schedule. But when I walked in, I was not there. I walked literally to the desk and I could see the faces of the people who were manning this space. And it was not 30 minutes that I went and I sat outside, and I sent one of the organizer's Twitter D M and highlighting my concerns about this space because what I saw on the very first day of CSS and that was because I came at lunch. It was after lunch, and they had already been stressed out. So that's why I knew was a problem, because the conference had only started been going for like, three hours, and they were already stressed, and what e knew was gonna devolved into, or people of color having to justify toe. White people always always are welcoming spaces why they couldn't come into that space number one and why we needed a safe space, why we needed to be separated, Why we felt why this space was necessary. And the first really engagement I saw was it was a talk in the space that was about accessibility. And the white guy comes over and he's pissed. He can't come in. And he says, It's ironic that accessibility talk can't is not accessible to everybody. And I was like, Well, explain to me why That's ironic because the people who were there were just, like, fed up. And I was like, OK, let me step enforcement and I'm like, Why is it ironic? And he didn't have a reason for accept the fact that he couldn't get in. And then I'm like, Why is it all right? The talk is about accessibility. The space has nothing to do about being accessible to everybody. That's two different things. And then he said something about he tried to do a little offhand comment because he's in the LGBT community. Well, he didn't realize that one of the people there there was also from the LGBT community and said you could have had your own spaces. Well, So what? What what is what? What are you trying to say? And so and I knew at that moment it was gonna be a shit show. And it wasn't until the actually the next day at Js cough when some of the the the organizer's showed me that people have gone to Twitter to complain about this. And at that point, I lost my mind because I was like, OK, I get that. You're pissed because you can't get into space. That's what whiteness does. But for you to go on Twitter Ah, public format to question why I need a safe space. I am not having that. And so it just It was just everything that I knew was gonna be in so much, so much worse. And so by the end of that three days of these Black individual, these people of color having to justify themselves for having the space, they were tired, they were exhausted. And I had my conference on that Monday. And so everybody knows that Onley marginalized people could speak on my stage. And if anybody Danes to question that, you can get the hell out. I'm not I'm not debating it. I don't have a team to discuss it with. It's just I'm here to make these individuals safe. And so when they came, they have been dealing with it all day Monday, so and now it spills over into its fourth. They've been dealing all day Monday and and they were just exhausted. And so I was able because I only had I usually have six speakers, but I only had four. And I had not even planned to do this because I was just gonna you know, do something else And but I saw that the exhaustion on their faces. So for the last hour of my conference, we sat in a circle and I just created a space for these people of color to tell their story just to share their story. I don't really remember a lot of things because I'm always in the moment. But one thing I do remember, and I have no problem with saying this. I told everybody there. If you're white and you open your mouth, I would hit you in the throat. I really was. I was at that point because I wanted to make sure they understood that This was not about them. This was a space for these people of color to process the trauma that they had been experiencing for the last four days. And if you could not give them that space, if you could not give them an hour, your ass is going to be a problem. That I was going to really have a problem with you. So from the and I wanna have this conversation because I don't want people to think it was a fail again. It was an experiment. We were very happy in that space toe. Have that space. And it's just we've experimented. We see what could go wrong. Now let's fix it. So tell me, how did this even Because I don't think that you and I even talked about this. How did this idea even come up? Because I think that was a bold choice for the for the team to do this.
\n Kim: Yeah. So the idea came up again in the conversation was to eat. So it was not to his ideas. She always told me that the by pocket space is not the first space ever. So there are examples from before from other events which are not in tech. So we talked about what we could do even in the discussion about security. And that's what we could do to make people feel safer in our event. So since we are realizing as a wide organizer team, our our attendees are mostly white. So having a look in the former years So this was a tense conference. If you saw the group photos, group pictures in the beginning on in the opening of Js continue, you could see that there was an improvement, but not that. So the thing is that we were sitting together and talking about things which the conference could do to provide spaces or safer spaces for people of color. Eso This is how the idea off the by pocket space came to the organizer's for the first time. E I talked to them about this idea and everybody was agreed directly, so there was no longer discussion was just the question off. How this should Yeah, look. And who can organize it? So, yeah, we asked. There are Lauren and Vanessa on. They did a really great job, but as you already said, it was an experiment. It was the first time we had no idea how this would really work out in the end. So the idea waas to have a team off people of color. For the space. I think nobody was thinking about how hard this would have
\n Simone: Thio,
\n Kim: How hard we would have to protect the space in the end. So this is how the idea came up. The whole organizer organization off the space was with the by pocket space team. So Lauren, Deron, Vanessa, eso This is how it was. So, too he helped in the beginning. So they they've written a block post about the space and about their experience, and I can recommend to read it. So as the space was at the conference, we were all happy to see happy faces going into that space, entering it and having a good time in there. But after the conferences, the organizer team had long discussions about what came to our ears about how hard it was to protect it. So you already mentioned the text message you sent. So we were talking about this and we were talking to the organizer's off the space, during the conference and we offered to help to be there as a white person. But we we failed in in realizing what we actually did, that you cannot only have a space and then leave it as it is and go away because we were we would have. Yeah, we would have been. So we should have taken the position off protecting the volunteers and the organizer's, And to make sure that we are standing with the space. So, yeah, we announced it in the beginning. So in the in every opening on every day. But we weren't there enough. So it was really a separated space, which was good, which was the idea. And I think this is what didn't get into our hat so I can speak of myself. So I was like, Maybe they don't want me to be too close to the space because I don't want to be annoying, but, there was actually I think that was a mist ake. Maybe it was a planning miss take to It was an experiment, as we already stated. So, we we failed in seeing the impact of this small room we were providing for a group off attendees. And I'm happy that people were able to have a good time there. And I'm happy that, something like this is nothing and could be, created in other conferences or events as well. But there are a lot of a lot of things which you have to do to make sure that something like bike pocket space or bike pocket space, for example is really integrated into the whole event like nobody should be should already think of. Only think about going to the organizer's off the by pocket space and letting them know that this is not the right way to do it. They should always see that we are standing behind that space. And we failed and making that sure enough, that the white organizer team was standing next to the by pocket space team and we were not discussing those questions too often during the conferences. But the organizer team off by pocket space had to, So they were harmed. And there was really bad situation, which we which Yeah, which came to our heads afterwards. So yeah, so the experiment went well and there's a lot off things we have to do. So, so as people who've been to the conferences are reading about, the conference is no, that we've already decided not to come back in this kind. So this was the last off kind grace country you as well, Osias. This country, you We are really thinking about how to restructure the whole event, to make sure that those spaces are not only on on top, add on which is half served. So this should be included into the organization off Saturn event from the first time. Also, the organizer team has to think about their own prevents that we are white people. So we have to restructure the organization that we have to restructure our own structure, getting into the team, finding out where I see if we are, Yeah, where are our biases? What do we have to do to get more people, more people of color into our team and to feel safe in our team and then maybe feeling safe enough to tell us we're feeling harm? Please help us in this case because I think this is the biggest failure that they didn't feel safe enough to tell us that they need our help or to trust us that we want to help and could help in this situation.
\n Simone: I'm so man happy. You mentioned that because the reason I'm explain to you why that is because when marginalized, particular people of color coming toe white spaces, we already have to be at 110%. And we have to create many times something out of nothing. And we will not. We will go to our friends. We will goto. We will not allow you to use the fact that we don't have the resource is all these things against us because that's what happens. And so, in that in that message that I sent to the organizer one of things I said waas, that there need to be white people outside of that space, remove those people of color from outside the space and allow them to enjoy the space and have the policing done by the by white people who can explain who could challenge the other white people. Because again, white people don't listen to us. When we when they challenge us, they think we're supposed toe go by what they say and then when we don't It were being angry and aggressive and all these other things. And so it z not an equal playing field. And also and I told when the organizers say that the these individuals wanted to the three organizer's I wanted to man the space that themselves. And I told no, I told him this before. I said, I don't And I doubt very seriously if you bring it to them that they will say yes, I need your help in this. And I knew I knew that was not gonna happen. And so I like to do. At that moment, it was sit back and just watch it happen unfold, which is quite painful. And to be there at be there to support them in whatever help they need it because I knew that Ah, white organizing team going to them and saying, Hey, we're hearing this. How can we help? Would come across as you don't trust us to do this. I'm not gonna let you know. I'm not, that this is painful to me because I'm not going to show you my pain. That's a big one. You're not. I'm not gonna put my pain on display for you. And so I'm going to stuff everything down, and I'm gonna take this just so that you can't use this against me in, in, in in the future. And the thing that I wrote down right here is just so profound. It was a small space J s coffee. You takes up a whole damn
\n Kim: Arena
\n Simone: Warehouse, a warehouse, a freaking warehouse. This space was smaller than my home office, and it's still white. People still thought they had to right to come into this space that says so much about what whiteness does and what white supremacy and racism looks like even in the small core. Because it was a small corner again, there was no we. We had a fan in there, I think. But we were in there dancing. We were all that stuff and even in that, we couldn't have that space, that small space to ourselves without having to justify why it needed to be there. And I really appreciate the fact that you understand and this is what gets me is thes. Things should not be an afterthought. I'm happy you said this. This should be This is where, like, get pissed off about diversity tickets When people think about it. Oh, at the last minute. So we don't have enough Black people. We don't have enough, people on the LGBT Q. We don't have enough people with disability, So we're just gonna do this diversity ticket thing and see No, that should be a part of the organ. Is how you plan these spaces. We that right there shows us talks about white supremacy because we're in an afterthought. It's like, Oh, we got all our other needs taking care of Oh, we forgot about these people because, oh, we need these people. And we realize they're not here because, because God knows, we don't want people to come into our thinking with all just white people know we need these people of color. So this become become these tokens, thes things. I have a client who they gave money to a conference for diversity tickets. He showed up at the conference and was all white, and he asked the organizer, Where did the diversity tickets go? And he said he gave them toe older white men. That's who was their diversity. So you give her? Yes, exactly. Relative to young white men. Yes, white men are under older. White men are underrepresented, But are many of them marginalized? Hell, no on. And this is the thing that happens. It's its's. White people want to use diversity for when it works for them, but then they don't want to use it when it works, when it's in a part of helping other people feel safe. Yeah, And again, I don't. I'm happy it happened because I again there's a difference between theory and practice. And so I knew it was gonna be a problem. I didn't know it was gonna be this skill, and I wouldn't have. I had. Teoh is trauma because I was even traumatized, but at all. But I had to see it for myself to know how to speak about this, to know how to challenge individuals about spaces and and and the need for people of color to to justify themselves and and why they need, Like, why do you need to say space? Because everything is safe for you. That's why we need safe spaces. Every space is safe for white
\n Kim: People. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I also think it was good that so it was good that we had it. And the the block post from the by pocket space Organizer team shows that there were good parts in it, and that it is. It is worse to to to go on and to move on with those images initiatives. Sorry for the pronunciation. But yeah, there's so much you have to do as so thinking about also you mentioned scholarship program. So we, when I got into the conference, is involved into the conferences. I was the person in charge for scholarship and speakers communication, and it was in 2015, and it was also the first scholarship program we had. Andi, we have it since then. And it's, I think it's the biggest in a tech conference to so but
\n Simone: What you have to to
\n Kim: I am having in mind giving a scholarship program is you can't only throw out. I was at the tickets and then see what happens. So there's a lot of stuff you can you have to think about. So also the scholarship program is something which was put on top into the conference, which was, which is a conference. Jay is confused. A conference organized by three white men in the beginning, and most people in the audience were white men. And then you're putting on top the scholarship program because you want to do something good, but realizing that you you have to be more open minded, so we only have a scholarship jury for three years now, so this was kind off. We didn't know how to handle that much applications. And also, we thought about how how good is it that the white organizer team is reading the applications for scholarship program, which is for people of color and modern lies, people which we aren't eso We have a jury now, which is, yeah, which is representing the people we want to invite. So these are all small and wolf field movements we did to make the scholarship program and success, but we don't want to to So But we realized this year that it should be possible to make those people attend without a scholarship program. Not sure how we can do that. The scholarship program was a great help for a lot of people. I know that. So some of them came back as speakers and ah, lot of them have drops now, which they hand before Andi. They're thankful and they thankful for the opportunity to attend that conference. But it's it's at the same time. It's so sad to see that those people wouldn't attend without people giving money and then wanting a reward. Maybe some of them not all. So I have the feeling that a lot of them are giving because they see the impact of a scholarship program. But if they are at the conferences, they have to see that those people need space and that you can't only have the feeling off doing something good by inviting them and then leaving them alone. This'll was another movement we did on Lee two years ago and the year before, So in 2018 it was very spontaneously. So we we had a meet and great just to make sure that the people meet each other, that they know each other, that they are not alone, because we didn't have in mind and this is the same, which is now the by pocket space sought for in the first conversations we had about it. We didn't have in mind that we're inviting people from yeah, from different countries, people of color, people who are marginalized, and we are inviting them into a big tech conference with a lot of white people and a lot off. Yeah, people with a lot of money and power. And they feel lonely and they feel may be lost because they don't have anybody. So making them meet each other to see that there are a lot of people with whom they can talk to him with whom they can feel a bit safer was something we did very late leave. So it is always it is a process. It is a constant learning. But there are a lot off things when you're organizing an event which you have to in mind from the first time on. So from the first conversation about a new event, or while you are having an event thing, what processes are old, which one which have to be, which of the processes you already have have to be restored and may be restructured on. This is something you need the conversation. You need people to help you. You need people on your team who have experiences which you don't have. And you always. So what? What My experience was, that there are a lot off things making you feel like dumbbells because you didn't think about them. But you didn't think about them because you never experienced. So you you have to have people on your team who have experienced which you just don't have. And then you have to listen and then you just don't have to question them. And this is a
\n Simone: Hard yeah. It's like trust, trust that we know what's best for us. We're not trying to waste your money. We're not trying, toe. We're trying to again. Like I say, lack of inclusion is risk management issue. And and this is I'm glad you spoke to this because this is something I've been saying a lot lately, which is the different diversity is about recruitment. Inclusion is about retention. So it's about just because you I show up at something does not mean I feel included just because you you open the door and I come in. That does not mean I feel included or you have an inclusive space. Very often you have exclusive space, and I'm gonna say this and it's gonna be funny for people of color, because we do this. We goingto next space or any book we're gonna talk about tech. We go into, let's say, a tech conference immediately. What we do is starts trying to spot of the people who look like us immediately. We just started looking around on seeing, how many people of color or in the space and I can I can commend one conference or set of conference organized who I've seen do this and it's predominantly white people closure calm the closure conference. But Alex Miller, I think, is like, yeah, he does also strange loop. He when I that was because so coming from Atlanta, where they're Black people everywhere to go to that conference was 400 some of the people and I walked in and it was like, Where are the Black? I mean, it was read. It was a sea of white people. I felt immediately uncomfortable, and maybe I literally standing on the chair and trying to figure out where are the Black people of color? And one thing that they've done is the night before the conference, because they're also not a lot of women there at all. They they provide a dinner. So we go to a restaurant and they pick up the tab and all the women are there meeting each other socializing, and and literally it was it was it was less than 30 of us. I mean, that it was foreign. To some people, it was less than 30 something women. And so we enjoy each other's company for the night, the day, the first day of the conference. They have it so that all people of color and this when I went, it was it was Black people on it was five of their five us, and they pay for us to go to a Mexican restaurant. So they pay for us to go and socializing and talk, and and I get that a lot of places can't do that. They can't make not be ableto, but I take that back. Screw that shit. If you're asking for money asking for extra $100 from from a sponsor is not gonna kill them. They're going to do it or they don't. And these spaces are necessary. So even in that space of I'll see a whiteness. The organizers of the closure conferences at least made an attempt so that I can connect with people like myself and had had knew that there are people like me, so I could feel safe because I'm gonna be just be as honest as I can be. I do not feel safe in a space full of white people. I do not feel safe. It is not a safe space for me. And if you're not understanding what I'm saying, let me say it again. I Kim creating do not feel safe in a sea of white people. I just don't I don't care if it's a tech conference. If it's on the street, it is at the zoo. At the movie theaters. I do not feel safe. Yes. All right. So what would you like to say in your final moments? This is really good. Thank you so much. First of all, for just being as transparent, honest, and being a great role model for white people who are doing these events because I can talk about it all day long. But coming from another white person who's struggling with this, it means something. So thank you for for for taking the time and being so honest and transparent. But what would you like to say in your last moments?
\n Kim: Thank you for having me. I have to admit, I was very excited that the first podcast I was invited to and I i e I enjoyed talking to you and I can just say that there's a lot of things we have to do and it's it's good if we worked together on some things and yeah, to all the white people. Just learn and listen. It is really necessary. And also it it gives you something. So I I understanding how the people how how people feel on your event as an event organizer is the most important thing to make the event and a successful everyone. So just listen constantly, learn constantly and restructure and re process everything you can.
\n Simone: Yeah, we're iterative community. Why don't Why are we being interpretive in these things? And one thing I want to highlight before I before I close out is I want to highlight s o. Many people think that this is a U. S. Issue on Lee. Thank you from coming from Berlin to talk about that. Yes, there is racism and white supremacy and places outside of the U. S.
\n Kim: Thank you.
\n Simone: Have a great thing. You too. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the HASHTAG called the Scene Podcast. And I'd like to thank all our current sponsors of the podcast and the hashtag called the scene movement off course. We strongly encourage everyone to become an individual sponsor of the hashtag called the same community. Just visit the website at hashtag called the scene dot com to sign up today on behalf of everyone here at hashtag called the scene, we'd like to thank you again for listening to today's show and have a wonderful day. Hi. Hi. Hi. Time Time