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\n Kim Crayton: I'll tell me if you remember no telling if you remember welcome to the hashtag holiday season podcast. The show focused on the strategic disruption of the status quo and technical organizations, communities and events. Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of Hashtag Cause of Seeing podcast. I have a very good friend of my Melanie Crutchfield with me and I'm not gonna say anything else. I'm gonna let her introduce herself and then we're going to talk about why it's important to cause a scene, how it's important, how she's causing a scene. And then we're gonna get into some really interesting conversation.
\n Melanie Crutchfield: So Melanie take it away. That's a great intro. And yes, we will get into interesting conversation, like we always do. So yes, Melanie crush field is my name. I am a junior developer. I've been working in tech for about three or four years or so, involved organizing my local pie ladies. I'm a co organizer of the SAN Diego python user group. This last year I've had awesome opportunities to speak at Django Con and north Korea python and pie Tennessee. And I just taught at pike on us. So there's all this fun stuff. I'm also a huge mental health advocate as I have a major depressive disorder and epilepsy and migraine. Those last two aren't related to mental health disorders. But there are a ton of fun. So I've got that going. I spend a lot of time trying to demystify and normalize mental health issues because we like to be afraid of them and shame people and then people don't get treatments a real mess. So there's that I'm also an anti racism activist and I think that that's where a lot of our interesting conversations are going to end up. I am a white woman
\n Kim: And I'll
\n Melanie: Tell very white sounding self. So if you want me to talk about any of my other weird white stuff, I'm happy to I know myself. It's fun.
\n Kim: All right. So tell the audience why it's important to cause a scene.
\n Melanie: Ah This is a good question.
\n Kim: And before you say that I want to say you along with another friend was so that some context Of the audience to understand that you helped me form the idea around being disruptive in 2018 and causing a scene. So there we go. So you want to blame. She's partly destroyed.
\n Melanie: I'll take it. That's that's good. I mean, so I think the easiest way to for me to talk about why we cause a scene, right? Why were mouthy, why I speak up? and you know, I try to do respectfully and I try to meet people where they're at. But the the easiest way to understand it in my mind is through protest through what what protest looks like, right? Because when you protest, there's the one way right where we organize it ahead of time and we have a march in that sort of thing. We stay on the sidewalk. There are other times where we blocked the street, right? And, and the difference is now I'm annoying to you, you know, now you're looking at my son, who is this person out here inconveniencing me as I go to get my Starbucks for goodness sakes, right? and that's just different, you know, and then there's always the pushback of protest, but not like that, right?
\n Kim: Like like
\n Melanie: Use your voice, but but not in the street. Thank you very much. As I mentioned, I have a mocha latte waiting for me. You know, protest, right? But not like cap, not like that, you know, not in the middle of my football game, please. You know, there's all this stuff, but that's when people pay attention. Unfortunately, because, you know, in the context of racial justice, it does not cost me anything to ignore the problem. I will go on with my day. I will not be directly affected. And everyone else in my position is going to have the same thing. And if you if you don't stop and say, look, I know I'm in your way, I know this is uncomfortable, but really do we want to do we want to continue our legacy of violence. Is that what you want to give to your kids, you know, is that what you want to participate in because that's where we're at. So the other thing that we talked about a lot in white anti racism gonna stop you right
\n Kim: Now. Hmm
\n Melanie: You're going to place your
\n Kim: Back No, no, no, no, no back. I'm actually taking a moment to breathe because that affected me and I wasn't expecting that to affect me. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. The fact that yeah, you can just go on with your day for you, for you standing up for these things or a choice. Yes, go ahead. It's just there. Yeah, that's just
\n Melanie: OK. Yeah. All right. Yeah.
\n Kim: Mm hmm,
\n Melanie: Yep. And I didn't understand that before. Right,
\n Kim: That and exactly. And if you don't realize that that's that's the part. It's it's just that was just so powerful. Just because if you just having that realization will tell you for yourself where there your environment, you'll be, you'll be continued to be defined by your environment or you will change the narrative because at that point when you have that realization, as I always say, you can't go back once you know, and now you're making a conscious choice whether to continue moving forward whether mm wow hmm Just it just resonated with me the fact that you have a choice.
\n Melanie: Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I know and again
\n Kim: Enjoy it. You know, I don't want to meet myself because I want people to understand that this stuff is real. Go ahead.
\n Melanie: You know, you've been talking a lot about how privilege is access, right? Yeah. And I know that privilege is hard for people to talk about, especially if they've had hard times and injuries and they look around and they think, huh, I've had hard things. How am I privileged? one thing that I have access to is my safety when I walk out my door, my white skin protects me. My skin has never been a liability. That is privilege. I have access to safety, you know, for me, for my family. Huh.
\n Kim: Mm hmm.
\n Melanie: That's privilege.
\n Kim: Your skin tone has never been a liability. All right. So keep going. I'm just taking it all in.
\n Melanie: Yeah. So what do we want to go
\n Kim: Next? how are you causing a scene. Mm
\n Melanie: Mm What? So, you know, we talked a little bit about showing up for racial justice. It's a national organization. It's a chapter based organizations. So there is surge national. But then there are certain chapters all around the country. I got involved with my local serge chapter here in SAn Diego. I was one of the founding members. I'm pretty sure this was right after Michael Brown. And it was just one of those things. I think I heard it on NPR you know, yeah, that was like, you know, here's this other group. If you don't know where to start, Maybe check them out sort of thing or, or maybe it was just an article, on the fact that they exist but I just went, you know, I didn't know what to expect but I can contribute the vast majority of my understanding and knowledge and shift of being more uncomfortable or being more comfortable being uncomfortable being humble in these spaces like surge did all that for me, you know. I remember one of the first things that have,
\n Kim: We said exactly what the acronym stands for you,
\n Melanie: Yes showing up for racial justice, so and showing up for racial justice is a, it's an organization, it's an anti racism organization that focuses on educating and mobilizing white people for racial justice, which I laugh because it's a weird space to occupy and I get this. So but I mean I can say what it's done for me and the work that we've done here in san Diego we focus on education. One of the first things that was said to me when I started showing up at surge meetings that are mostly educational workshops, that sort of thing. Was that it is not my fault that I'm a racist. I was born white in a racist country. It is the air that I breathe, It is our legacy as a country. I did not, there wasn't a day right in like 5th grade where they were like white kids, would you like to be racist now and everyone went totally I do instead huh again this is our legacy. This is our country was built on the backs of Black people that happened. We took forever to recognize Black people as a whole and valuable that happened. And still there's this narrative, there's this people argue that about subconscious bias. What is the thing? I don't know what to tell you. You know? we absorb the narratives of our communities and as soon as you can recognize that and let go of the guilt and shame and the reactionary. No, of course I'm not a racist because I'm not a bad person now. You can make some progress. You know
\n Kim: How, because this is something that comes up a lot. It doesn't happen often in my feet because again, I stick, I'm just stepping into this racing because I've been so focused on business and economics internationally, but I recognize every time it's in the United States and that's what I can speak to. I know what's happening in other countries. But in the United States, I cannot talk about improving inclusion and diversity and businesses and communities and events without talking about race. And I recognize that now. And that was something I did not want to do as a Black person from the South. I was like, damn, I've been dealing with race my whole life. But this is where I am. And this is where the conversations devolve into, well they no longer conversations when someone of color, particularly a brown woman, it's usually a brown woman who is challenging privilege in the status quo and some good white person decides to interject their thoughts that not all white people
\n Melanie: Huh not all white women
\n Kim: That's racist, they call us racist, they call us, OK. And I, what I'm getting at here is I want you to tell me or to tell the audience what it was like to recognize that due to factors that you had no control over you're her racist and how that was to come to terms with that in such a way that you said it's not acceptable but not only not acceptable. You chose to cause a scene about it and take your time because wow hmm So guys this is this is a hard one for both of us because now Melanie is feeling what she's feeling and I'm not going to edit any of this, but I edit nothing because I want to be as transparent as possible. These are very hard conversations that have and and I'm gonna well, Melanie comes to terms what she's gonna say, I'm going to say I can have this conversation with Melanie because she has shown proven to me time and time again through the demonstration of her actions and words that she is willing to be uncomfortable so that I can be comfortable and if you're not willing to do that, you have, you are absolutely of no service to me or these movements. And we're going to get into more of the search thing in the D D. Delgado article in a minute where she takes white privilege and these white racist anti racist groups to task. But I want to sit with this for a moment because friend to friend. This is a conversation that most people aren't having and you are privileged in the way again using the word access you're having you're having firsthand access to a conversation of a Black woman in a white woman talking about these very challenging subjects and not being disrespectful of each other honor in each other's space respecting me that we are multi dimensional individuals. So neither one of us we agreed to have this conversation that we would be crying. But that's what it is and I feel safe with her and I think I can speak for her that she feels safe with me.
\n Melanie: Absolutely.
\n Kim: And because of that, you guys are getting a picture into a conversation that most people will not ever have. So I need you to honor this conversation. And no, the power and what we're doing and what you're being, what I'm providing you with. Because these are not easy subject to talk about. There is no, there is no one size fits all answer these things take are going to take time. So I just really want you to talk about what it's like to recognize and to own that you are a racist.
\n Melanie: Mhm. OK. So I would not have said that I was racist when I came into anti racism work. Yes. And and again that's because of guilt and shame and the no, no, no, I'm not a bad person, right? And I would man, there's so much to talk about in and around this I was raised to be color blind, right? That was a thing, right? Which now is is laughable, but it because you're essentially saying I'm gonna look at you and pretend that a major part of your life, your personality, your identity, your culture just doesn't exist, you
\n Kim: Know? And not only that I think the more troubling part of it and the more detrimental part of it is when we teach both brown and white kids that white, these young kids don't understand that there is a difference and when they start experiencing it, it really fucks with the psyche as you've been told your whole life as a brown person that were the same. But then you see that things are different and then what you do is internalize that because you start thinking something's wrong with me, what have I done?
\n Melanie: Mhm.
\n Kim: And it's not you, it's the system and then for the white kids, they start seeing these differences and there are some because they're young, they start standing up for like what is going on, but very shortly they recognize that there is a payoff and keep inquiring it and being a part of privilege.
\n Melanie: Yeah I didn't, when I grew up there was like ah Black person at my school like I lived in the self proclaimed cowboy capital of the world. There were we had a lot of white people so I didn't, I just didn't know what a racist looked like to me in my mind is like somebody that uses you know racial slurs. Somebody that says you're not as good because of your skin color says that out loud, right? what I didn't understand is that racism you know and to speak to you know white people calling people of color racist because they say, hey look white people as a group, you have this problem, right? and then white people go out and that's racist because you were talking about my skin, you know racism is a system of oppression and I am racist because I was raised in that system.
\n Kim: Thank you. Yeah and that's why you know me, that's why I love defining terms. And that is, it's not about racism, is not about skin color. I remember growing up, my mom told me that Black people can be racist and I didn't understand that until now were not a part of we're not we don't have privileged access to the system of oppression. We are the oppressed were not the oppressor
\n Melanie: Right? Right? And you know in my life I've definitely had some experiences of people looking at me and being like, I don't think I like you or trust you, I see your skin. I don't see that as racism. I see that as there are probably reasons behind that narrative self preservation. Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely. You know, and I think about I lived in Hawaii for a time, we straight up stole that land, right? And we dismantled a beautiful culture. Of course, that makes me the face of the oppressor, of course, you know, and of course, my face that has protected me. My face that yeah, yeah, that was, yeah, I was told that my face was better, right. My skin was better. We don't say that out loud now, right. And you
\n Kim: Don't have to say that loud. It's about demonstration of behavior, Right?
\n Melanie: Right. So we don't say it out loud, so we're not racist, right? But we do have these internalized narratives that are hard to recognize. And I think, I think what is more costly is when those narratives cause us to write off violence against people of color as A one off situation, Right?
\n Kim: Yeah, they did something they should have followed the rules. They should have did done something, there's something they've done that deserves this kind of treatment. Yeah. Not the fact that you need to look at a system of policing that is based on a foundation of racism and oppression and not respecting these people as human beings, right?
\n Melanie: I think that that those internalized narratives, you know, and some of this is like, oh, look at these Black neighborhoods, they have higher crime, right? If you look at, you know, all of the television commercials for robberies, right? And they're like, you need a home security, what color is that guy that's breaking in? Right? And are we afraid of people doing white collar crimes? You know, these white collar crimes where they wipe out people's retirement, they literally ruin lives. Are we afraid of those people? Do we demonize those people? You know? No. Why? You know, I mean, the same thing. I mean, there are so, so, so many examples, you know, I
\n Kim: Mean, you look at the banking scandal in 2008 that brought the whole damn economy to its knees, there was no one ever prosecuted for any of that housing crisis, but every day we see some some white woman or something commonly, some people from barbecue and in the park, or some Black person at a waffle house getting their ass kicked or and then I am loving and loving the conversations loving meaning. I'm not the conversations of particularly around these mass shootings at these schools, not one of these white individuals have been killed and they are armed and killing people and not, and when the narrative comes out, their parents or whoever, no one says that they've been radicalized. No one says that they're they're it's always some misunderstood young white person who has been treated poorly by a female or by some, it's always this thing that you can explain around, but they're still living. And but someone who steals a, oh my God, I just read some of these shoplift or something and these two women took off in the car and you shot, they shot into the fucking car, but you can but you and this was shot lifting. Whatever they were, they caused no one any harm that I can remember. They didn't they didn't there wasn't a robbery was shoplifting. And yet these young men are not only have access to guns, which is a whole another thing. So that's why I don't talk about politics, but I have to talk about it in this context based on what you just said. Because they have the intention to harm. Yeah. And a strategy to harm, yep. And they can walk away alive,
\n Melanie: Right? And I think this is again where these are internalized narratives where you even look at at how, you know, the when we talk about police violence, lots of these scenarios, you know, the officers say that they were afraid for their lives.
\n Kim: But you're not afraid of a person who just killed 10 to more people that are at a school come across them. You're not afraid of them because you have an affinity for
\n Melanie: Them. But Tamir rice baby. Mhm. You know, Yeah, we all haven't heard that story. Please, you know, look it up and read it that little baby sitting out there playing with a toy gun and you come up in fear for your life. You know, there's a there's a it has to be an internalized narrative that says people of color if your skin is dark, you are inherently more dangerous, threatening, et cetera. And it starts with, right? I mean, we can look at it in, you know, micro micro events like this, you know, I mean I know that you experience that this Black woman disagrees with me. That's scary.
\n Kim: Oh my God bless. OK. Yes, now we're talking about she's aggressive, she's angry. She's she's defiant, She's intimidating All these words that you put attached to us when we don't agree with you. And then I don't know what popped him. Just popped in my head was the serena Williams story when she gave birth and people don't understand. And she talks about because she was Black. It's as famous and as wealthy as she is. Her health care was not. And again the unconscious bias because I'm sure those medical professionals would argue that she got the same level of treatment as a white woman. But she can but she says she did not and it almost cost her her life. And the statistics show that women, Black women or women of color who give birth are at higher risk of having post birth complications due to these factors. And this is the thing that gets me. So I had a interview someone yesterday. I didn't even have never heard this woman in another part of the conversation country and she and I are having ideas saying the identical thing. And so it's like all these people, how can this not be true? All of us can't be lying. All of us can't be exaggerating. We don't even know each other, We're only coming across each other when we say something on twitter, it's like, oh shit, I know that that's my story too. So we can how why is it? So it's a challenge for white individuals to to say, you know what I even just look just to question, hey, there may be some validity in what's going on,
\n Melanie: Right? And so I can address what that was like for me. First of all, and this might sound crazy to you. I didn't realize that people of color overall have a different experience with law enforcement than I do and did growing up. I did not really what
\n Kim: Changed that for you?
\n Melanie: What you're describing that I heard more than one story from a person of color saying here, here's what it's like for me, you know. One thing that blew my mind is that I have heard many, many stories of, of families of color if you're raising a brown kid, that at some point and typically, you know, at a pretty young age, most families sit down and say, look, here's how you interact with law enforcement and it is important that you adhere to this script because if you don't,
\n Kim: It'll cost you your life. Everyone in the hashtag called the scene community shares the same common beliefs based on a set of four specific guiding principles. One tech is not neutral, nor is it a political too intention without strategy is chaos. Three lack of inclusion is a risk and increasingly a crisis management issue. And lastly, but most importantly for we must prioritize the most vulnerable to find out more about the guiding principles and adding them to your twitter profile banner. Please visit hashtag cause a scene dot com.
\n Melanie: Now
\n Kim: That
\n Melanie: Yeah, it was mind blowing a first of all like, and I think the reason why white folx have a hard time seeing that as systemic as something that people like you said, people that don't know each other having the same experience, you know, throughout the country is because it's so wildly different than my own experience. Like it's like you're living on a planet, a planet that I don't know about, you know, but in reality you're a block from my house, you know, or your next step, you could be next. Yeah, you're my neighbor and my same apartment complex, you know, or
\n Kim: You could be your your significant other,
\n Melanie: Right, Right. And I talked to, I talked to a woman once that she's a white woman, husbands Black. We started talking about some of this stuff and even though they were married, there was still a knowledge gap there, you know, and now she's raising her daughter, you know, represents Black. And so that's how she is going to be treated. So now there's a whole different set of parenting skills that you need. It's a mind blowing,
\n Kim: Mind blowing funny because I said this at a very early age now I know and this is not arrogance. I know I was an attractive kid based on what society says is attractive. I know I was attractive teenager and you know, attractive young person, a young woman and people were mind blowing our have are blown by the fact that white men have never approached me because they don't to them, I'm not they're kind of pretty
\n Melanie: Right, that's
\n Kim: The first thing. And also even growing up, I knew and I couldn't articulate why, but I knew when I saw interracial relationships because my my mom had an interracial, she married a white guy and I knew just watching that that I never wanted to be in that kind of situation for the fact that I didn't even know this word at the time the emotional labor of being in a relationship with a white person in the United States. Now maybe some of white person from another country. I wouldn't because they don't have the same issues. But if they come from a country that has oppressed people of color, we're gonna have the same problems because the emotion, the fact that if I would have Children and have to explain to them, Hey, if you come to, if you're in this situation, this is what you need to do to keep you safe and my husband or significant other has no way to identify with that. That would have been disheartening for me because then that's all the emotional labor I have to take on as a Black woman and Black women have enough shit to bear. I wouldn't have wanted that to bear that in my relationship as well when we were supposed to be partners. Right?
\n Melanie: Right. And again, it's just, it's so different from my lived experience that it took a long time for it to register for the concept of not, you know, when I get pulled over by an officer, my thought because I'm a very rule following obedient white lady. My thought is like I'm going to get a scolding right now and I'm not OK with that. You know, like I,
\n Kim: Or I mean at least you have that. What about the videos we've seen with people. I fuck you. I'm not doing. I mean just total white privilege. Oh my God. And and the body camera, the cop and no one's getting shot right? That's your fucking badge number that it added. I'm gonna report you, wind it
\n Melanie: Right. Access to safety,
\n Kim: Yep. Access to safety. Thank you so much. And that leads me into this surge conversation. So I'm good. Yeah because I so I so identified with a lot of things she put in there because it's something conversation I've been having of privilege not being the right people to lead this movement. And there's a reason why I have a legal white men. Their jobs are to protect me and to support me but not getting my fucking way to to clear the space to make the safe space the safe space safe and all these things but they are not to speak for hashtag cause a scene on my behalf, I'm going to read you some things that because I want these to be on record then we can talk about this. So this article is from D. D. Delgado. And the name of it is it was in the Huffington post. April 20 april 4th 2017 whites only. S. U. R. G. Which is surged in the caucasian invasion of right of racial justice spaces. So I'm just gonna read. So she says if there's one thing white people don't need. It's more spaces reserved for their comfort at the expense and exclusion of people of color. She also says by creating bubbles within white supremacy where it's safe to practice anti racism. Your were amplifying. We're applying there are sorry, we're implying that there are places where racism can remain unchallenged in many ways. White anti racism spaces serve as safety nets, protecting allies from their own uncertainty and the fear of failure while simultaneously keeping people of color at a distance. She also says, I believe a big reason many organizers are reluctant to criticize why anti racism groups is because white led groups have significant financial resources at their disposal. Reparations cannot by our silence. Reparations do not warrant civic, amenity and even thanks, that might be hard to digest. But reparations are just money old. Mhm. I'm not suggesting that good works hasn't been done by white folx in the fight against white supremacy. It has or that it should stop. It shouldn't. But we cannot ignore the ways approaching anti racism work with a white lens is inherent is inherently flawed. But and then she says, but there is a there is and this is but there are is no quick fix to this problem. And if you're doing this work so that you can sleep better at night, I'd ask you to remove yourself from this fight. You're not ready If you're if you were you'd be sleeping worse, isolating yourself from parts of white supremacy that make you feel icky surrounding yourself with like minded white people and blocking racist facebook friends is primarily done to ensure your own comfort. What I'm asking is that you make yourself uncomfortable at every opportunity because unlike your discomfort, mine is not optional. And then she says if white led organizations insist on having a seat at the table, they better be, they better get used to being held accountable by people of color. So you, I just want your opinion and this is not your not speaking for search national and this is not even you speaking for serge SAn Diego. But as a person who has was working on these issues and that article came out, what, how did you feel? And, and what did you take from it?
\n Melanie: How I felt and what I took from it
\n Kim: Are two different
\n Melanie: Things because feelings are tricky little bastards. My first instinct of course right? Of course was that's what I can't believe you're criticizing the work that I'm doing. I'm trying so hard, you know, and I didn't say most of those things out loud because that's what I took. But what I took from it is when you stop and play pause, let's pause on these reactionary feelings, it doesn't feel good to be criticized. And this is vulnerable. Work, but let's dig in, You know? so what I took from it, it's good stuff basically. She's right, you know, and we, you know locally have adjusted the way that we work over time. It's been difficult to find our way. And but what, you know what surge in san Diego seizes their place. And what I see is my place also is not in leadership in the anti racism movement. My job is to have hard conversations with white people specifically because I understand that experience, that was my experience. We do have a little bit of a feeling of like come get your people, you know, like what are your white people doing that? I mean I'm white, those are my people and that's where I belong. Is education there. Someone took the time to educate me and I need to reach back to do that. We also get a lot of feedback saying as people of color, we do not want to educate you. People, go do your own work. So I feel like that's correct. I feel like it's not the job of people of color to inform me on my own racism and the racism of our country and how that affects people of color and how I'm contributing. I'm perpetuating a system of oppression and violence. That is not your job, right, kim to say Melanie, let's sit down and talk about all the shit I have to deal with and how you, my friend are contributing to that. It is my job to go read a book. It is my job when, when people start saying stuff that's racist out of even out of their best intentions. It's my job to step in and say, let's think about this for a second. You know, if they're popping in on your feed, right, then it is my job to pop in and say, hey, this is an interesting conversation I'm happy to talk about with with you. And then if, yeah, pushing happens right, especially towards you or other people of color, they're out there talking. I feel like it's my job to be like, look, this is no, like you don't need to be attacking this person. Like I need to be uncomfortable. And if that he comes at me, that's great. If that conversation comes with me and the conversations are awkward, sometimes heated. That's OK. That's my job.
\n Kim: It's so funny that you said said this because, and I'm just loving the access to safety because the more I speak. Mm and the fact that you, the more I speak up, the more content I create, the more I share. First I have. There's this thing in my head, people just don't understand that this is not easy work for even us to do because we, there's a, there's a safety calculation that we, we, we, it's, oh, it's some damn, it's some algebraic equations going on in our heads. I feel safe. So let me let me run down to you what it's like to, to, to make a video for hashtag cause a scene I do it on with periscope intentionally because I know that's where my my my fans are, my group of people are who are who have told me because they follow me that this is something that they want to hear. So I'll create that video and then I upload it to you to Youtube channel. And then I make a calculation of, well before I get uploaded to Youtube channel, I ask myself, is this a conversation that needs to stay in twitter where I feel safe and then when I choose, did not make a decision to upload it to Youtube channel to share it on linkedin or facebook. There's a calculation there of particularly facebook because I have their white friends on facebook, how would they engage with this? Do I have to have? I mean there's a whole thing that I have, the calculation have to think about and then what, but what's been interesting is put it on linked in because I will inevitably, inevitably get a call from a Black follower or Black connection, whatever. Who's asking me kim are you OK? Have you taken care of yourself? Are you changing how you get back and forth to your engagements so that people don't follow you? Have you double have you what's it called when you double authenticate your, your your your apps and whatever so that no one can hack into your stuff when I wrote the video, when I did the video are I can't remember the title exactly, but it was like have white women lost their minds. Someone literally asked me, he said kim you know, I have a security background, do I need to go to events with you? Yeah, this is crazy. This is so and so that's another reason I don't put stuff on facebook, I don't want my family to be concerned about me because thankfully I can say I'm in the tech space where people are stepping up and having these conversations. If no, for no other reason that we have to, for business sense we have to, because you can't create products and services for a global market from one perspective and to be innovative and competitive in this market, you need diversity of thought. So thankfully I'm in the tech space, but my family and friends don't understand that, so they just think I'm just out here putting myself at risk. Mhm. And so that's a calculation I have to make when I go beyond twitter or go beyond tech, what will some person who does not like what I'm saying? How would they react
\n Melanie: Because they get a
\n Kim: Pass if they decided to do something to me, they get a pass. Twitter just by and and and now twitter is not going to be a safe by the the new guidelines they have of muting people's content. If people have, if so many people have reported you, then you won't be seen or all these, even though I'm not muted, even though my people who follow me are looking for this content. If someone who disagrees with me has reported me, then I will be muted. And it's their way of silencing us,
\n Melanie: Right?
\n Kim: Mhm. And I'm so happy that we just had this conversation. This has been because you just hit on its axis. I never It's access to safety. Yeah. Because there are white people who talk about these very same things and I'm sure they didn't have to do the mental mathematical acrobatics that I have to do.
\n Melanie: Yeah. I mean yeah, I just had this conversation with a group of people. And I remember asking, you know, there are a lot of white men in the room and I remember asking as as a content creator you know, for speaking to the underrepresented and marginalized people in the room. I know as you create content. You know, if you're a white man, some of the push, my pushback might be I don't agree with how you wrote this code or you're stupid. You know, maybe that'll happen if you are underrepresented and marginalized. It's a little bit more like I'm going to rape you and your family, right? And so like you said, there's a different calculation there. And it's just it's the same thing as a conversation before. I cannot imagine that in the apartment next to me, they're having a discussion about how to be safe when they get pulled over by a police officer, right? And, and, you know, as professionals, it's hard to believe that other people are calculating their safety. How do I post this and engage with people without having threats on my life, are being concerned about walking outside or losing job opportunities because I'm too noisy, you know?
\n Kim: And that and that's one extreme. But what happens normally, and people laugh at this is every person of color. When we walk into the room, particular in tech, we start counting how many other people of color are there? huh. Because again access to safety. So I don't even have to be outspoken. It could be my attention never to raise my head above water, but if there are no other people of color there, I will be a target, right?
\n Melanie: Yeah, I do that as a woman. Part of, part of my work as a feminist also is understanding the magnitude of the experience of women of color compared to my experience as a white woman. It's just, you know, it's it's a process now understanding what it's like for me to be white and how that compares, you know, and as a, as a woman, as a feminist, right? You I started out, I don't know if other people had this experience. But as a feminist, I started out, we're ladies, we're all the same, you know, we're all, we're all in this together, we all have the same challenges, you know, etcetera, etcetera.
\n Kim: Which speaks Carnie, which speaks also to the there's no color thing that you're taught as a child. I don't see color because the data is showing that white women are the only women who are making kings and tech and it's because they have access to safety and access to privilege that that women of color do not. And our numbers are decreasing because well, one of the things is for the first time we all do have access to the same technologies and, and so I can amplify my voice without your permission where before you had access to all the channels of communication. And and this is my my my issue with stack overflow. And again it's not personal, right? But it's you have demonstrated a level of disrespect to me as a woman of color when you choose when I'm having, when I'm actually tag teaming with a white woman on these issues and we're having these conversations and yet you choose to only elevate her message. You you change something you change the verb it or the understanding of something you've done. Based on my telling you it's incorrect, but you don't credit me for it,
\n Melanie: Right.
\n Kim: And the idea that the very people who are excluded from that population are expected to work for free to help you fix their population, that that platform, there are a lot of challenges I have and the reason I I they are for I don't want to use that term. They are the where I'm focusing my energy is because they are the bigger biggest player in the field that touches all every developer out. There are every language, every, every framework, whatever this is, the one place that everybody goes and to have a population that engages that is predominantly white males between the ages of 18 and 34. And also that you are approaching businesses to use your platform for hiring purposes. When now these businesses are looking at stack overflow scores that underrepresented and marginalized individuals won't have because they choose not to engage. Now you're affecting them economically because they don't have, that's a barrier. So there's a lot of issues and it's not about, it's not about personal, but what it is for me is what stack of a flake stack overflow is the example for me. I have limited resources, I'm only one person and if we can get stack overflow moving in the right direction, there can be an example for how others can do
\n Melanie: It because
\n Kim: They have so many touch points,
\n Melanie: Right? And it's really interesting that you know, I think what's happening at stack overflow is what happens very frequently, which is like I said, you know my ah ha moment of saying whoa! My experience really is not kim's experience, you love the same, we didn't grow up the same like and a lot of that has to do with my skin color. If I was working on the assumption that our experiences were the same, right, then I'm not going to be, I'm going to be like why does it matter? Why are we well, I mean why does it matter if I have if we have equal representation? What does it matter if we have diversity? We all have the same
\n Kim: Experience. Yeah. And that's why I challenged the whole equal thing because there is no way in hell you and I could be equal for me to even get to the level of privileges you have. You need to sit down and let me get a head start a real head start before and that's what people don't understand what affirmative action was. No one was letting somebody when those people of color got into those jobs, they worked their asses off. It was just I mean there was no you need to give him a head start, just opened the door,
\n Melanie: Right?
\n Kim: And that's what people that you're taking from me. No! Hell where not? What? What you're recognizing though? Is that Black excellence or Brown excellence and what it's showing is that you're just mediocre how well you think you are is so based on privilege in your position and once we get in, you can't really compete with many of us because we are so resilient. We're so used to being adaptive and changing based on whatever that is just second nature to us. And this is for the first time in your lives ever. You had to play this game. Mhm.
\n Melanie: Yeah. And you know, the interesting thing is that, you know, people say that there was this narrative for a while that, you know, with feminism, right? When we talk about women making gains in the workplace, that men feel like they're losing something the same thing with racism. If we feel that people of color are making gains then as white people, we feel like we're losing something. And there was a narrative for a while that that was just a feeling. But it isn't, it's a real thing as I lose my privilege. Like that's loss. You know, it's a it's a real loss. But the choices again, do you as a person just as a human is do I want my legacy to be continuing oppression? Mhm. I really don't, I really don't I don't want my kids to have to come to adulthood and have this same surprise, right? What's the surprise? Oh shit, I'm a racist or shit, I have been my ignorance has has let oppression danger fall on other people that's not OK. You know, it's not OK and
\n Kim: It's and then it's not a zero sum game, it's not a pie that we evenly split up. There are infinite opportunities. Letting me in does not compete with you. Letting kim in does not compete with Melanie because of kim and Melanie don't want the same damn things. And that's what people who need to understand and what I bring to the table. Even if we have the same job. My perspective only enhances if my perspective is allowed to be acted on and validated. It only enhances all of us because we create better. But that
\n Melanie: Right? And I think the one like if I had to boil down one thing to try to convince another white person to start on a journey of knowledge that hopefully will also push them to action. The thing I would say is all I want to do with my life is love better. Mm And I know that people share that and know it and you cannot love better while ignoring the cost of race, racism in the United States. You just can't.
\n Kim: So with that I'm going to say thank you for being here for trusting me for being safe for being vulnerable for being transparent. And allowing this conversation to take place. I'm honored and humbled by your ability. This continually allow me to push you outside your comfort zone. And I love you. I love you too, ken, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the hashtag called the scene podcast And I'd like to thank all our current sponsors of the podcast and the hashtag called the Same Movement. Of course, we strongly encourage everyone to become an individual sponsor of the Hashtag called the same Community. Just visit the website at Hashtag called the Scene dot com to sign up today on behalf of everyone here at Hashtag. How the scene. We'd like to thank you again for listening to today's show and have a wonderful day. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.