{ "text" : "
\n Kim Crayton: I'll tell me if
\n Leonardo Graterol: You remember
\n Kim: No telling if
\n Leonardo: You remember
\n Kim: Welcome to the hashtag holiday season podcast. The show focused on the strategic disruption of the status quo and technical organizations,
\n Leonardo: Communities and
\n Kim: Events.
\n Leonardo: Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of Hashtag cause a scene. And my yesterday is Leonardo grappa role. Leonardo introduce yourself to everyone. OK, well I'm I'm Venezuelan software engineering was born in Venezuela 30 years ago already. I moved to chile In 2014, so I've been living here in Chile for four years already. If I work all kinds of development works mostly in web development for companies of all sizes startups right now. I'm working for a rather large corporation have worked at, in e commerce. I've worked with geographical systems. I worked in a lot of industries, which has been very reaching experience because I felt contact with many, many areas of the, of the industry. So I've learned a lot. I have the opportunity to learn a lot of things. OK. And that's it from my part. When you said that when you asked me to to do this posCA podcast, you asked me to talk about my experience as someone like under privilege. And at first it was hard for me because and I live in latin America. So most of the times I'm more on the privileged side of things. Like I'm mailed, I've come to notice that I make more money than most of my female colleagues. So I have to pick my rain really hard to come with experiences. But I found some experiences where even though we sometimes can be in certain positions of privilege with sometimes are on the other side of privilege to, so it's sometimes we we can play the two roles, like sometimes we can take advantage or or position or sometimes our position is a position of advantage and sometimes you are on the downside. For example, me being an immigrant here in chile has had its own challenges. So yeah, I have quite a few things to talk about today. Well that's good. I'm glad because and I like to do house, I have that perspective of privilege because people often think and I keep telling I want to be clear, privilege is not just about white males. A lot of it depends on where you are in the world privilege because I'm looking at you and you guys won't see this because or the audience won't see this because it's not video, but you're also of light complexion. So that's a privilege, enlightenment. Latin America. I'm not completely wide. Exactly, but I passed like I'm like more hispanic, there are people who is wider than me, but certainly I am on the privilege side here in latin latin America totally. Yeah, because I've heard I mean just from what I hear, I mean it could be of african descent in latin America is I mean I'm looking at you, you're not getting your not having that issue with privilege. So it's a fact, So I'm happy that you're able to speak from both sides and also a different kind of privilege. That's not about white males. So so tell me why you're cause why it's important to cause the same hashtag all the same and how you're specifically doing that. Well for me it is important to bring like to do these issues because many people are like so blinded to this thing actually existing that they even get offended by by the existence of these kinds of movements. I've had problems with friends in private conversations like why are you supporting this kind of thing or why are you? Re tweeting this or this or that I don't understand why we have to have like be inclusive or anything if this is like a marriage to crashing, it's like it's not a meritocracy, let's be honest. Yeah, we have a lot of issues that come from bias from unconscious bias that people don't realize that they have them and they feel very offended. So I think the only way to fight these things is to be very vocal about them to be very open and to like yes, spread the word that there is a problem. Like the first step to solve a problem is acknowledging that there is a problem. So that for me is like the most important part of everything too make people at first realized that the issue assist that like I said, I I make more money than most? Or I think all of my female colleagues, like I had a lot of friends in development? There are people who may like three times less money than me. Women with basically the same level looks of experience. It's it's crazy. I work at a company where I worked with a friend of mine who even had more experience than me. She she was instructor in a development course that I assisted to. So imagine she talked to me and she made less money than what I made. And it's crazy and this is all because of unconscious bias. So it's crazy and I'm like I'm again, I'm loving your perspective on this because again it demonstrates that it's not just in the US. It's not just this thing that these issues are universal and universally impacting the technology community is not just one being it's all these things compounded together. I mean to say that you're making three times what someone else is making. That's huge. Yes. It's it's weird. It's like what how how come does this happen in? Mm. So tell me since you talked about why it's important. Tell me how are you causing a scene and where you are and online because I know several people who are from other marginalized groups that get the same kind of text messages or messages from people like why are you doing this? Why why are you not talking about us? Why are you talking about these things? Why are you bringing these things up? so it's interesting to try to want to advocate for even the very people that are saying stop talking about this. Yeah, the first thing is like using my twitter, which is my main form of public communications, like practically practically the only public platform I have that has like a lot of rich, I've been cultivating a follower base in twitter lately and I try to be spoken of as I can with the issue and the kind of direct messages that I get our craziest, like even people that I consider friends have got mad at me like and they star private, like replying to me like and I've become like the go to person for many people to criticize all these movements, it's crazy, it's like it touches a raw nerve in people and whoever is vocal about these issues gets where well you must know it more than me probably gets like a lot of fire from people for being vocal about this other than that I got to acknowledge that I'm not doing as much as I maybe would like to. Sometimes one is busy with life and what not so well what else have I done? Well, last last february, I remember I I participated in this global safety day you were there too. That that was like my beginning, like the first thing I did like to actively participate in these kinds of movements to bring diversity up. Like actively organizing an event. It was very enriching and I'm planning a couple of things for the future, more in the, in the sense of mentoring developers. I think in latin America we have one big issue with, with developers who don't have a formal education in college. The that's like there's a lot of bias against those developers, companies I've worked for who pay them less even though they are very capable developers, the companies who won't even look at them. So the next thing I want to do is start a, like a mentoring group for for these folx to level of their skills so they can start applying and they can start competing with guys and and with folx with regular formal college education because that's another diversity issue we have here, which is more related to, I don't know how to say to income to Yeah, to, to social status of social economical status because many developers learn on their own because they cannot pay for college. And that's one big issue here in latin America that they're not getting the jobs they should be getting because I strongly believe that developers who attend boot camps who are self talked or they or who dropped out of college, which which is actually my case are completely capable of working at big companies and delivering value for for software companies. So that's where I want to focus my effort for the second half of the of this year. That's really interesting because it's that is a big place where you need to call the because so the majority of developers today aren't coming through CS programs and so the companies are using that old outdated formula for identifying people when the job pool is not is shrinking of, people were coming out of the s program. So they're not even seeing that they're doing themselves a disservice long term because they will not have the developed, so they need to be developing the talent that's coming out of alternative or non traditional methods of learning and as adults, that's how we learn, we learn, we have choices in how we learn and if we are able to level up on our own using the resources that are out there that are at a free or nominal cost, then how And it's so funny because once you get on the job it does not matter. Can you solve my problem? Exactly. And I think that people overvalue the, I'm not saying that formal college education is not valuable because it is, I had the both experiences, I started to two degrees, both of which I drop it out right, and it is valuable what you learn in college, but I think that what I've learned on my own, what I learned in my jobs has been the same, has had the same value or even more maybe from what I learned in college. So I think that there's like some Bayous that only through college you can learn certain things and which is not true. There are many things that you learn in college that maybe it will be harder to learn learn on your own, but people can and people does it all the time, so it's like a bias that we have to get rid of. I used to have it myself. So how do you, how do you, do you have any actual strategic plans for addressing this? My plan is to gather a group of people and based on their skills and their interested to try and build something like like an end to end digital product, it could be mobile a bit, could be web up depending or if I have enough people, a web up, Amoy lab, this took a desktop up and and try to bring people through all the process of building approach. So they gained the first hand experience that maybe they're not getting sometimes. What I see is people who graduate from boot camps hell like a hard time transition into a job. Yeah, because they lack certain skills, certain experience and it's like creating a place where they can gain this experience, this experience guided by people who has worked in in the industry in order to to make them feel comfortable working with technology and creating things with their own hands. It's like, depending on the skills, even get more skilled developers to mentor less skilled developers. So it's, the idea is that is a scale on its own and the idea is to ring at least two or three more experienced developers ideally who has experienced teaching too, so and aim it at that group of people who has been getting problems finding a job. Two weeks ago, I was at that meet up and there was this guy who came up to me after my talk and he said like, hey, I've been following you for a while and I was like, he was, he's a Venezuelan like me, he in chile for less than a year has, hasn't been able to find a development job and I told him, but why aren't you like developing on your own? He was like, I don't know what to develop or I don't know what skills should I be learning. And the idea is to guide these, these faults who are like, they know the basics, but they need to go a little beyond in order to be able to, to find a job because sometimes the job demands things that they don't know, but that they are perfectly capable of learning. You speak to a point that started all of my speaking and almost two years ago and that one is actually two years ago now is the need for mentors, I don't care if you come out of and, and this is what's interesting to me is when people say they need people with CS degrees, I've seen people with CS degrees struggle with the same issues that self talk and boot camp graduates is because once the school is an artificial environment, learning on your own as an artificial environment, it's only when you're able to be to solve, put in realistic situations and solve realistic problems that you start exercising that muscle and so and that and that really happens through mentorship and apprenticeship programs. So I commend you for doing that and that's why I just don't understand everybody's just so stuck on formal education because those CS students still come to their jobs first day and still no no more then, than the average person, because most CS programs are teaching you to post there CJ about computer science and algorithms and those kind of things. So to learning to be a developer as a whole different feel correctly. Yeah, so it's all be interested so please keep me updated on how that's going. But one of the things that I want to talk about is that how, what challenges are you seeing and how can you cause a scene or have you seen someone causing a thing related to english being the dominant language of technology. English being the dominant language. Actually, no, it's like something that you assume that you have to to learn it, it's like you by default, you assume that you need to learn english because most materials are in english because for getting access to good jobs, english is actually a requirement for for example, in my current company, I work for after a certain level of seniority, you need to have a certain level of english knowledge to to reach that that level of of seniority and yes, it can be for me, I've always, like, ever since I was like in high school I started learning english but it is indeed, it is a not, not everyone has like the same, I don't know how to say not everyone is as as comfortable at learning english or not a language as other people. So yeah, it's it's definitely taxing for some people to have to learn english to be a developer practically. It's hard, it's so interesting that you say it because this is the issue that many marginalized groups have, you know, in their countries, you just have to make you just like you said, it's just assumed that you have to learn english, which is a barrier, which is a barrier to entry. You could get so much done within your company, I'm sure if everybody were allowed to speak spanish, if everything in my company we speak spanish, but the thing is that we're a global consulting consulting company and some of the clients are international and you have to know english because I get that, but OK, this is that, but you put a period on this because I'm going to challenge not to you, but this thought and this is why it's it's such a barrier and it's so when you say you don't even recognize the on top of science, the thought that too, yes, it's easier to go after or to ensure that people are speaking the language of the client. That that makes sense. And I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out how I'm trying to about how I'm going to put this. Yeah, but the fact that that's the expectation is the problem that I have. Yeah, yeah, that's that's the problem that I have the expectation that I'm an international company is thus because I'm an international company, I can't default to my own language, I have to default to another language because I'm an international company. Yes, it works. It's easier, but it's easier for people who speak english, it's not english easier for people who don't speak english and because english speaking countries have been the dominant player here, they've been able to to stop this assumption or this this this this I mean you just said it as a matter of fact, you know, like but it's the fact that it was so easy for you to say, it was just shocking to me and you not see that as a problem. As a concern as a shock to me because yeah, it is indeed a concern I have for, not for me because I've had like always been for me has always been easy to learn languages, but I found in my life, people who doesn't have like this skill to on or these interests, I don't know whether how, because I believe that we all can learn languages, but maybe some people don't care about it and they have a harder time learning, but it is indeed a concern for many people here in latin America that there they struggled with learning not only english, but whatever order language.
\n Kim: So everyone in the hashtag called the scene community shares the same common beliefs based on a set
\n Leonardo: Of four specific
\n Kim: Guiding principles. One tech is
\n Leonardo: Not neutral, nor
\n Kim: Is it a political
\n Leonardo: To
\n Kim: Intention without strategy is chaos. Three lack of inclusion is a risk and increasingly a crisis management issue. And lastly, but most importantly for we must prioritize the most vulnerable to find out more about the guiding principles and
\n Leonardo: Adding them to your
\n Kim: Twitter profile banner, please visit hashtag
\n Leonardo: Cause a senior because basically they have to learn english and then learn a programming language or something like that. They learning several languages at the same time, definitely it's definitely a barrier to entry because it says that you can't even consider a job in technology period, it's a very for getting better jobs actually you can get around in spanish but the better baby exactly definitely require english. Yeah the jobs that will help you really transform your family and your community require english. Exactly. Yeah and which is it which is interesting you know they're the english isn't required for those lower playing skill jobs where we where a lot of people aren't getting paid I mean getting paid well below you know how cost of living and and that's OK to speak your native language but for those things that can really change your life you have to speak english. And there's to me there's just so much step to that. There's so much about privilege in that that's so much about it's being exclusionary. It's like a secret code and if you don't speak it you you know we're in a secret a secret club because I and I guess I'm just really sensitive to it for the simple fact that I know I only speak english and when I go to these other countries I have to rely on other people to help me communicate or technology and it's a challenge and and to have the assumption that there's going to be someone there who speaks english can to help me is a fault on my part. You know. Yeah if I go to the U. S. I don't assume that I'm going to find someone speaking spanish that would help me maybe in new york maybe in Miami. But if I go to I don't know can talk I won't find anyone speaking in spanish. So I have to learn english because I'm going to english speaking country. Exactly. It's interesting to me and I get so enlightened. That's one reason I love doing this because I learned my level of death about what exclusionary and and again those things that we aren't even aware of and how we're how we're perpetuating it. And they're so subtle many of them are so subtle. It's just really interesting. I wanted you to talk more about your your experience being a person who has privileged and also equally not having created. Yeah. Well another we're talking about languages. The first topic that came to mind when you contacted me was a kind of related to language but it was in like separate thing. It's about not only language but cultural differences. I've had a couple of very specific issues regarding cultural differences. That that is also very taxing for for newcomers to a cultural bit an immigrant orbit someone moving cities. The language that we use like not not only what we speak but even in latin America it happens a lot we share the same language but there are cultural difference. There are different expressions. So for a newcomer to a new culture especially in the US now that people are getting very sensitive about a lot of issues with which kind of makes sense. But I've had very hard discussions with people because I'm not a native english speaker. So sometimes I don't know yeah maybe a word is a slur. You know you learn it, you don't know the complete minute and you sit and you get burned because of that worrying is like what Dude, I'm not a native english speaker like OK it's good if you correct me but don't bother me, don't change me because you know language if you went to see if you can hear to south America I'm sure you've had a harder time than me communicating and you made a more of mistakes. So it happened to me a little while ago in twitter with I'm not going to get into the specific but it does happen a lot and that's one big step towards inclusion with people from other cultures. You know I understand that sometimes if we transgress on social code is not out of being it's not made in a mean spirit. It's just that we have difference in cultural codes and sometimes we don't know that certain things or actions or words are actually seen badly in other places. One of the things that is so funny that you bring that up because I've had several conversations with people from other countries whose only experience before they got here was american or U. S. Television. And so they think that those those scripted experiences are what they are here. And so it's a shock to them when they recognize that's not the case. And then how do you because that's how you learned english. That's how you come to quote unquote. Try to assimilate in a culture that is not that thing because Hollywood, someone in Hollywood made that up you know? Yeah for example you learn by listening to rock music and hip hop music. You know the words they use should not be used in public conversation. Or it happened to me like I'm I'm remembering like nine or 12 months ago. I don't know like last year there was this discussion about the testing in the U. S. Where women are tired that people call them girls. Yeah like I'm not a girl and my woman yeah when I tweet in english or when I speak in english I have to make a conscious effort to not do that because first like you say we learned by watching tv by reading and it's like the common way that women get addressed whether it is good or now is they call them girls. So that's what you're learning. And the other thing is here in latin America but for women and men we call people girls and boys. Like when when you have like a report with someone we we go I get to the office and I say oh and we tried to hi boys or higher. So it's like if it's someone you have trust with someone you know it even begins a sign of affection. So it's not like patronizing or condescending which is the complaint that many people have when people in the U. S. Golden girls it's more like a sign of affection for us to call or self that. So that's that's why example of a big big big cultural difference. And I remember when I explained this to I don't remember who it was on twitter and she said like but don't they teach you that girl is a girl when when you go to english classes and they teach you the difference between girls and women and I was like I've learned more english outside the formal classes and what I learned in high school I think. Exactly and they may be they taught me the difference but you know I learn more by watching tv by watching movies by reading that while I'm learning class. So and what's interesting though is and as we talked about like the pop culture, you learn from what you know the pop culture was with important to your countries and a lot of the derogatory already in nature to minorities and women and so but you wouldn't know that those are come and it's so funny I there are times and and it's usually I'm going to air on this it's usually a privileged person that I am calling out it's very rarely a marginalized individual because I recognize that there are so many oppressions upon us that unless there's something that just outright it has to be in their best interest kind of thing. And that's a, that's a fine line for me because I try not to determine what through somebody else's best interests, but if I see something that it's like, OK, because I did it a lot when I was a teacher, and because that was my job, but as my students, as I left education and I, and like before, just give an example when, you have to be 18 and out of school to be, to be on my facebook page, I would not accept invitations unless you were out of school. And then I would see because 18, 19, you're still young, you're still making stupid mistakes that I see them put things on, you know, on facebook. And at first I would say, hey, you might not, you know, you might think better not doing that. And I just decided, you know what, these are adults, they've got to figure out this stuff for themselves. So I would not reach out to them until I saw maybe we're putting something that would in the long term affect them either legally, you know, or something like that. So, and so it's that thing for me is if you said girls and boys, I may say bring it to your attention that, you know, hey, I'm learning all the back terms, although it doesn't offend me. You may have to push back on that because I know that you, you know, english is your second language, but to shame you into going through when you learn that in school, no, I wouldn't do that. But what I do exactly, I think, I think I agree with you. We have to find like a middle ground because yeah, you need to make me aware of the social codes. But there are ways of letting people and I do that even with privilege when I, so these are the people are actually correct because there they're the nature of privilege they've never had to consider or seldom has to consider other people. So when they make a misstep, yes, I call it out because, and, and unless it's over and then their response to me being an asshole, I usually just say, hey, why don't you think about it in this way? Or this is what this term means? And this is why it's offensive about it, that I do that because again, that's my education background, that's usually the first step for me, is to say, hey, is that this person seemed like somebody who's open to receiving this and then I, you know, I will come in and say, hey, I get what you're saying, this is a different perspective. I had this issue on saturday this past week where someone, their whole thread was about one thing, but there's this one part of this threat which was pretty could have been potentially harmful for other people, not like you and they kept pushing back and saying, but did you read the whole Yeah, the fact that you made an assumption that I didn't read the whole thread is a problem because I wouldn't have, you know, tweeted this, but just because I agree with your whole overall concept does not agree. That means that I have to totally agree with your approach. I don't it seems like people and things are all or nothing and very few things are so binary and we just take and we're never gonna get past these things if we there is there is so much that is not Black and white about these issues. And that's why I don't like people who want to do these blanket reactionary month one size fits all kind of solutions because that's not the issue. The issues are these things that you're talking about. These little bit of things that come up that people have not addressed it. We don't know how to handle. Those are the things that stop us not unconscious bias training. It's when someone says something in the meeting and everybody looks around, but no one says, hey dude, you can't say that, oh that's not appropriate and this is why it's not appropriate. That's the stuff that gets us in trouble. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like you say it's a very complex issue with many variables and it certainly doesn't have a one size fits all solution. And I think that we have to find middle grounds for understanding each other mainly to understand that we all come from different backgrounds, even if we live in the same country, we have different socioeconomic backgrounds, different educational backgrounds. So what might be appropriate in one context is not appropriate in another. And I don't know, I think it goes through a lot of diplomacy and everybody needs to have the goodwill to, to change their mindset like, OK, I understood that there are certain things that I do here in latin America to communicate that might not be appropriate in another context, but some people need to learn that if I do something, it's not because I mean it in a bad way and we have to find milligrams for all of these. Yeah. And the thing with cultural differences for me, the main starting point to understand that not everyone who does something exclusionary is doing it out of me in spirit. Sometimes it's like you say, there are people who are willing to listen and people who are not and with the people who are willing to listen, you know, exercise a little patience, show them another point of view because well, as I said, I get a lot of heat of my direct messages for talking And even I don't consider myself that I talked so much about the issue, but I don't know, it's like sometimes it's so invisible this issue. That what other little thing I do to talk about it. It was one of the things, and I'm glad you're speaking about this is the fact though, that once you start turning a light on certain things, people start seeing becoming afraid. Because even though you say it's a small thing, it's really a not because once you start putting turning the lights on, it does not stop. And that's the thing because you fighting a light on that thing may not affect me today, but it may affect me tomorrow or next week. And then there may be other exposed things come to life. It's that whole, a lot of people are also a lot of people. I mean, that's not the very next privilege you're benefiting from that. So you're going to fight to hold on to any of that at all. I mean, you're gonna hold whether it was, you're being intentionally discriminatory or not. If it benefited you historically, you're going to fight to keep that. And and that's just, you can, you can try to be the good guy all you want to, that's just nature. That's just, you know, hey, I'm going to preserve what I have, I'm not gonna. And so that's why it's interesting when they get these conversations like, oh, I work for this. No, you didn't work for that. If you really think about the system that allows you to have that had, you had had I had the same opportunities, You wouldn't even have that because your level of skill is not even at my level of skill, just like you said about the person you work that you actually taught as an assistant to was making less than you and has more experience and so that people, people keep holding onto this system that has allowed them to progress in a world if things were really equal, they would not be in a situation where there is. Yeah, totally. I I see it here all the time. Yeah. If there are a lot of bias that we don't see it even, I probably don't see it and there are many things that yes, you you work to get them, but that work that was facilitated by other things. Like you could go to a good college because someone paid for that. Yeah, you juggle, you could reject low paying offers because you didn't have to work right out of college. I didn't have the chance for example, I have to start working before finishing college. I drop it out because I moved here, but I didn't have like the chance to reject low paying jobs ability because I needed to work. So not everyone has that opportunity and like you say it's not, not, not an equal playground for anyone. Yeah. So, this has been a very interesting conversation. I just knew just based on the stuff that you were repeating. And again, I've only been introduced to you as you said to the globally diversity PFP when you were you showed up in the Black channel. So that's very interesting. I think that was in March, right? Favorite very much. I don't remember now that that they that the idea the CFB, we were in the middle of a big migration of data at work. So it's like I wasn't duty before I did this every day and I want to work. It was a crazy day for me. I don't I don't even recall it, but I want to thank you for coming here and sharing your story because it's through sharing your story that has to cause a scene just to expose people to different perspectives. And it's when we have these perspectives that we can broaden our perspective and start looking in the corners where it's dark where we are being the criminal story and exclusionary to other people that we didn't recognize. So are you have any last words know where you were saying? Yeah, the the the diverse view for me, that's the biggest part. I've had many, many issues like that for not being diverse. I remember now there was this it is talking about the diversity. I remember a mistake that I made some time ago, there was like a conference that rejected that the email descent for the people who didn't get chosen to talk at the conference, they forgot to include everyone in the background copy. So they did the C. C. And we also the email of everyone. Oh my god. Well started speaking like well now that this funny incident happened let's get to know each other a beautiful experience and cultural differences here. We all started talking about our experiences with with conference and this and that and I said like well for me getting rejected out of a conference is like it's like you know asking girls or women out on a date sometimes they reject you sometimes you get to go out with their you want to go out with. And there was this guy like from a nation contracting us India and he was like I've never dated women and what not. And I was like whoa I should have made that comment because yeah in latin America or in the U. S. We have a different dating culture. Things that people in other countries have like with more conservative approaches and what not. And he hit me in the face like wow I remember that in these cases when dealing with conferences or dealing with twitter dude remember that you are speaking to a global audience, you don't know who might be on the other side. Like if I make this comment to people in the us. They might joke about it. If I make that comment to people in latin America, they might joke, but for people in other cultures can be quite a choc to ever see that. It's it's we have to understand that we are. Thank you. Thanks to the internet. We we now have a global audience and that is usually very amazing thing that we can be talking miles away from distance and we can be talking to each other is amazing. But we also have to be very aware that we are dealing with people. There are seven 1000 million people in the world. So you know, there are all kinds of backgrounds and experiences that we have to try to take into account. Yeah. Yeah. Well that was a great place to stop because I actually just wrote that tweet that down. That's about to be a tweet. Remember that we're communicating with a global audience. Exactly. That's a great way to end. So thank you so much for coming on the show and you for inviting me continue to call the thing. Yeah. Yeah. And probably we'll see each other in Atlanta I think in a few months in a few weeks actually. OK, OK, see you again. Bye bye. Yeah.
\n Kim: Mhm. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Hashtag called the same podcast and I'd like to thank all our current sponsors of the podcast and the hashtag
\n Leonardo: Called the same movement.
\n Kim: Of course we strongly encourage everyone to become an individual sponsor of the hashtag
\n Leonardo: Called the same community.
\n Kim: Just visit the website at Hashtag called the Scene dot com to sign up today on behalf of everyone here at Hashtag. How the scene. We'd like to
\n Leonardo: Thank you again for listening
\n Kim: To today's show and have a wonderful day. Right? Hi. Yeah, yeah.