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\n Kim Crayton: E Tell me if you remember low telling if you remember. Well, I'll never forget the oh, welcome to the HASHTAG called the Scene podcast. The show focused on the strategic disruption of the status quo and technical organizations, communities and events E Hello, everyone. And welcome to today's episode of the Hashtag cause A scene podcast. I'm so excited you guys don't know how
\n Dr Crystal Fleming: Freaking excited I
\n Kim: Am. I have I reached out to this. I had to go back to my d. M. Because I reached out to this individual march 14th, 2019. And she's been so freaking busy that I'm just getting this. And I thought maybe I was gonna have to reschedule because my Internet went out at the house. But it came on an hour before. That was divine intervention. I'd like you to introduce you to Dr Crystal Fleming. Dr. Fleming, could you please introduce yourself to the audience?
\n Dr. Fleming: Sure. So I'm Crystal. I am a professor of sociology and Africana studies at Stony Brook University, and I'm also a writer, social and cultural critic. And I'm an anti racist, and I've been writing about and doing research on anti racism for, gosh Attn Least 15 years now on my work has dealt with racism in multiple countries. So my first book was about racism on the legacies of slavery in France. My second book. It's about racial stupidity in the United States. And I'd say the common thread through many of my projects has to do with examining white supremacy on, as I said, sort of especially from a global perspective which I think is often
\n Kim: Lacking. Yeah,
\n Dr. Fleming: So that's who I am, That's what ideo.
\n Kim: Alright, So I always start this with two questions and you know, listeners, I am so jive right now. I got a Black woman to talk about Being anti racist with your white ass is so we're about to get into this. So I always start with two questions. Why is it important to cause a scene? And how are you causing a scene?
\n Dr. Fleming: Why is it important to cause a scene? well, especially when it has to do with systemic racism and white supremacy. If we don't find ways to stand up and disrupt that system, then it will continue to persist unchallenged. So it is extremely important, to cause a scene in terms of challenging dismantling. I often talk about wig snatching white supremacy in my work, but also, you know, addressing not just in the abstract, but, like in specific social situations and specific institutions in which we work or move about in our lives to disrupt and cause a scene for the cause of justice. I think if that hadn't been done by many people throughout history, then, I would still be chattel. Quite literally. So there's that.
\n Kim: Yes, I talk about that all the time. I was like, people, like, Go back, go back toe. What? Like right, Right? What? The good old days when you've wanted me to be a slave? I don't think so.
\n Dr. Fleming: Yeah. I mean, there's so much to say about the racism and sexism of nostalgia of that of that sort. The good old days when we were chattel and didn't have the right to vote, you know, weren't counted as actual humans. So how doe I cause a scene? I think that has shifted over time, and it's organic. It kind of depends on what I'm doing and where I'm doing it. But, I'd say in my academic life in my in my academic world, I suppose I cause a scene by writing and saying things that are considered controversial by, I'd say, you know,
\n Kim: Mhm.
\n Dr. Fleming: I don't know how toe Sina's controversial by people who don't take racism seriously. I think you know, I, you know, quite literally go to, different academic events and conferences. And I will talk about the racism and other forms of oppression that I have experienced that might be happening in the space where I am speaking. I call people out, I call myself out. Of course, it's always easier to call out other people than yourself. But in my work, I try Thio, you know, reflecting my own ongoing learning. And yeah, I mean, I think sometimes over the last few years, I've caused a scene on social media eso the different things. I've I've written on Twitter in particular that, you know, again caused controversy sometimes intended, sometimes not intended. Sometimes it's not clear to me what's going to be provocative ahead of time. You know, I can't predict how people going to react, but, yeah, I mean, I think I I causes. Seen through my writing, my research and my speaking, and and and also my Pedigo Jamie in all of this for me has to do with teaching in different ways, whether I'm teaching in the classroom or I'm teaching my colleagues or I'm teaching, ordinary people, right? Just how Thio understand what systemic racism and white supremacy are on to sort of begin to think concretely about what we can do to challenge
\n Kim: Them. OK, so I am smiling on the inside because I've been I'm new to this. I could just be honest with you. I love, and I starred in your book, and you're like, although, and although this may be surprising, I had no fucking idea I was in when I was in the United States that, you know, it was racist, sexist classes, society until I was a full grown adult. I am from Atlanta, Georgia, and I also lived in Chicago, which is also very racist. And it wasn't until I started studying this that I'm like, Oh, my God. I've been gas lit my whole damn life because what? What the hell is this? Because you know something's wrong, but you can't No one's talking about it. As you said, no one is talking about it. Everybody is like you could do it. My mom had me in so many white space is growing up. I was the only all the time new. I felt that they didn't want me there. But no one would overtly say, We don't want you here So they do these other little things. They have me questioning who I waas, and just how you just open. I love that you opened with the quote and just the introduction. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that white people in America believe that they have a little toe learn people. That was Martin Luther King Jr While y'all always want to quote, Oh, we want to talk about that. I have a dream. We want to just keep him in 1963. We don't want to talk about the fact when you really realized that white liberals and white progressives were the biggest challenge. Thio any movement forward, we don't wanna talk about that, and so I just and also I'm an educator. And so there's so many things that I was just reading. Like Yes, yes, about your background. I was a special needs. I was in high school. Special title, one school, special needs teacher. And everybody was just like, Oh, pity my students. But the gifted students, everybody, I was like looking at these dump. I was like, Y'all cannot think you're ourselves out of a box. Do you really think this is? I would tell this is artificial environment. They've taught you how to pass test. That's all you know how to do. I remember when the valedictorian she was one of my sweetheart's. She she got valedictorian. Body was going around. Oh, congratulations, I whispered in her ear, I'm like, This is great, but you realize you're at the top of the bottom, right? You've never competed
\n Dr. Fleming: With the
\n Kim: World because that was my role in that space. And I didn't realize that it was this stuff because I didn't have a name to it. And now that I have a name to it and I'm getting paid to go into spaces and as I again as you say my when I do a talk, my third slide is usually ah content warning. I've been brought here to make white people uncomfortable, and I'm very good at my job and I didn't. I got to the anti racist thing kind of backwards because I've been in Tech. When I transitioned out of education, I moved into Tech and was like, Something's not right here. People are talking about inclusion and diversity, and I'm coming from a business strategist place. And I'm like, Yeah, something right here we have in the conversations we need to have because you think inclusion and diversity is about quotas and about people what it is about the fact that all of our all systems, all these algorithms, everything is rooted in white supremacy. And if we can't have that conversation, we're never going to do any better. And we're gonna continue to globally harm customers and clients. That is no longer acceptable. And so I that's what I know. My audiences. Comptel, I'm excited. This is why I'm so excited cause I'm like I'm talking. So I've talked to a lot of people, but you're the fact that you're a Black woman. The fact that your educator, the fact that you're talking about there's so many intersections here. I'm just like eh? So I'm gonna let you talk because you actually didn't say they have complete title of your book. And I want people to know exactly what this book is
\n Dr. Fleming: S. So the book is how to be less stupid about race on racism, white supremacy and the racial divide. It came out last year, and hardback to paperback just came out a couple months ago.
\n Kim: Yeah, so tell us how we came up with this title cause I just loved it.
\n Dr. Fleming: I mean to be, to be honest, it was pretty organic. I mean, and eso I came up with the idea for the book in the aftermath of the 2016 election, the presidential election. And I mean, you know, and it's Here's the thing and politics occupy a pretty big part of the book. So there's a chapter on racial stupidity in the Obama era and some of my own, political changes that happened during his presidency on then, of course, there's a chapter on on Trump and sort of How did we get here? A za country and part of what I argues that we have been here. We have been in the belly of white supremacy from the start. Not that Trump is, you know, a normal president and the way that many people think about that. But in terms of his embrace of white supremacy, that has been the norm. It's just taken different, you know, shapes in different eras. Andi, even Obama, I argue. And this is where again I cause the seen. Because even Obama, in his own way, embraced certain aspects of white supremacy. And I think we have to, you know, be honest about not only Barack Obama, but how Black people and people of color can also become complicit with these systems that systematically destroy us.
\n Kim: I constantly talk about we are all were raised and taught in the same systems. So people of color, Black people, we all have some level of internalized white supremacy and anti Blackness that we need. When you're talking about doing this self examination, that's the work that we have
\n Dr. Fleming: To do. Absolutely.
\n Kim: That's the word we have to do. We see it in our community with colorism. We see when we're talking about poor people, we see it when we see a gang. Boys walking down the street with their pants down. We see it when we ought to adult. If I are Black girls, we do it ourselves. And and And there's the caveat. We do it ourselves because the system is designed for us to use that as a distraction So we don't deal with the other stuff.
\n Dr. Fleming: Yeah, I mean, that's internalized depression. Absolutely. So I was already, you know, during Obama's two terms, I was, you know, I guess I was. A lot of things happen, right? I mean, we had Black lives matter. We have Ferguson. We had more attention in the public sphere to issues of race than maybe in a generation. And and all of that kind of compounded by social media Thean incessant. You know, videos of Black people being harassed of harassed, two murdered, you know, the whole the whole, range. And because I was so deeply involved in social media, especially Twitter, I was being exposed to just so much ignorance, so much racial on racist ignorance. And it was it was overwhelming. So in the aftermath of the election, I I knew I wanted to write some kind of book that would kind of be a primer to issues of racism, but that also would be written, you know, not in a way that would placate the readers. You know, especially I did not want to placate white readers. I wanted to keep it riel on DSO For me, even though I have come Thio realize that you know stupidity for some people is a triggering words. There's some people who feel that the word stupidity is able list. For example, on Day, one of things I try to do in my book and my talks when I use the term racial stupidity is to be very clear about how I'm using that word. And of course, nevertheless, there's some people who still would disagree with how I'm using it, but I'm using it not. Thio suggests that there are certain people who are exempt from these forces, or they're just some people who are racially stupid and others who are not. No, I'm talking about the ways in which social forces and the things that were exposed to in our socialization, our education and this education, our social interactions and just the broad system of white supremacy, how it programs us on, especially white people. But it programs all of us exposed to it to really misunderstand the world in which we live and to distort it in ways that reinforce the racial status quo that reinforced white power. Andi and you know, you mentioned Martin Luther King earlier. You know, definitely, you know, mentioned him and in my book right in the beginning. But there's another quote where he also addressed racial stupidity. And in fact, I just wanna as an aside point out that critiques of white racial stupidity have a very long history in the Black intellectual and political tradition. So Martin Luther King Jr one of the things he said was that there's nothing in the world more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. W B. Du Bois in his work also was very critical of racial stupidity. He, you know, I think anyone who is racialized minority in this country who becomes politically conscious you can't help but see the ways in which white people in particular, goal about in our society, proclaiming themselves to be authorities on knowledge, authorities and politics. Moral authorities. And yet they are proclaiming that authority while engaging in some of the most ignorant and stupid forms of behavior. And it's not because they are, you know, they don't have the capacity to do better. It's because of how power corrupts. It's because of how people decide that they don't. They don't want to know the truth. They want power. They want power and dominance. And so if they need Thio, come up with an ideology that is incoherent and doesn't really make sense as long as it gets the job done and protects white supremacy, That's
\n Kim: OK. And this is where I see I tell people people try to try to challenge me on this. I'm happy. I am so happy that this president is president. I'm just gonna let you all know because I couldn't have this platform if he were not there. It took that reality show to be to become president for white people to say, Oh, shit. This is what What's happening here? We've been saying it. We've been saying it, but our lived experiences were never enough. We have to provide proof, you know? What do you mean by that? We you know, we got to come with Dr documents and stuff, but I mean just for them to see it themselves. So there's some things that I say that are very controversial, particularly. And I say them because I am in the tech space with a whole bunch of privileged white dudes who Onley are there because they have a friend. They had a family member. They got access to capital. They barely have college degrees, but they think they know how the world functions. So I say some very have to again. You shouldn't understand this because as educator, I'm damn good at classroom management. That that is, if you don't understand, you cannot manage your classroom, not going to use the word control. You cannot manage your classroom. Nothing is done is what happens is that one student is gonna test you to see where the line is. And if you don't draw that line, not only will they push it even further the next time, but the people who need to be safe no longer feel safe because this fool is actually crazy. So these are So this is where I draw. Draw some lines and you may disagree, not agree me. This works for me in this particularly privileged ass space, Silicon Valley folx and all these people. So I say, based on what I know all white, because I give them a definition. Racism is race prejudice, plus system being able Thio having a system Babel Thio. It's a system of oppression so everybody doesn't have access to can pull those livers So because it's white supremacy, all white people are racist by design, you ain't got no choice in it. It is how you were educated, which means you cannot be trusted by default. You have to have for me to trust you have to have consistent demonstrated anti racist behaviors on even in that I know because you are racist by design, you will fuck up so I have to steal. And so this is what I need to understand even with your friends, even with your Black and because they'll say, Well, I'm married to Black, but that does not exempt all the years that you've been in, indoctrinated in this mess. What you What I've learned personally is in this space, the people who are the staunch is that these people were the staunchest supporters of my work have done something to harm a Black, a brown person in their lives before they get it to realize their complicity. And that is a problem that I have to be harmed for you to understand That your problem? So I draw that line hard in the sand and And how
\n Dr. Fleming: And how do How do these audiences react?
\n Kim: Do they get it? Yeah, So there there's a spectrum. So So in the hashtag causes saying community, I I again take that as a as a classroom. So on Twitter, that's the classroom. So this is how I know. And I have a strategy. One of my one of my rules is intention without strategist chaos. If people go in this stuff and just be engaging with everybody, you're gonna get burnt out. You're gonna have your feelings hurt. I ain't got time for all that. So some if I'm doing something, if someone engages with me first, I go back, I go look at their, profile. Are they? Are they anti Semitic? Are they Nazis? Are they Are they all that stuff?
\n Dr. Fleming: Yeah. Then then then yes. If they're If they're not, see then, it doesn't matter.
\n Kim: Hello, all For many of you, 2020 has turned out to be the year that I've been waiting for the moment for you to realize that fundamental, systemic changes necessary for us to move forward as an inclusive society. Many of you have also realized the importance of protecting and supporting independent voices like my own enforcing this necessary change. This work requires independence because the status quo i e. Corporate blackface doesn't change when power, privilege and money can be leveraged against the truth. Which means that your financial support via becoming a hashtag cause a scene sponsor is required. Please visit hashtag called the scene dot com and become a monthly sponsor off the community. Thank you and have a wonderful day.
\n Dr. Fleming: Yeah, if they're not seen,
\n Kim: Twisted my time. OK, that's not even a part of my strategy. So you can have your argument over there. I'm gonna block you, and then then I need to see OK. Are they even in tech? Or if you're not in tech, why am I even having a conversation? Because this is not I'm trying to change how tech functions. So then I when I look at And then I'll say and get thinking so bad, because then I'll see. OK, so they're in Tech and the people who are following me, they need to see this over and over again because they have a short memories. They need to see this happening over and over again. So what I'll do is comment Retweet and else they'll say something. I comment Retweet, and I'll put something up there. My audience, my community knows. And there again, the spectrum. When I do that, it's time for you engage. This is your work to do. So now you need to respond to this person and they're gonna keep responding to me. But I'm not going to respond to them because it's not about you. I can't scale talking to you. I have the scale talking to the people. So what I do is continue to comment. Tweet, retweet. And at some point I tell people this all the time we're giving enough pressure and enough time something racist will come on. Either get the angry Black woman trope. I get the I'm being.
\n Dr. Fleming: That's all very pretty.
\n Kim: E and I can usually tell between how many how they first engaged how long it's gonna take and and what that does is, So I have the people who know who get it, get it. Who? Like Kim, I cannot continue to harm people. What? What? I'm doing the work. Then you have people who are just new to this because they all of a sudden in 2016 you like there's racism. What? Yeah, so they're taking a little longer. And what they need to see is this whole thing. So what a recent engagement waas I was doing it. And this girl, this guy literally said because I was so I do another podcast. I started this on Sunday, so I do my regular podcast on Wednesdays. I do. How? Toby, anti racist podcast with Dr Kinsey's book on Sunday. So it's a book club. I read it and I give them homework assignment. So I was announcing it, and this dude comes below and says this will never work. All we need to do is, is this basically it was a breeding program. We you need to We're just gonna have toe People have mixed babies, and I said OK. And I said OK, so this dude's answer is breeding. Oh, he did not like this. And he just kept going and going. And I kept commenting between comment. So the people who are in the community who've been there well, they're responding to him because they're challenging him. They're bringing because they're bringing resource is that I've shared with them because their new people coming Every That's another thing about Twitter. You don't know who's there. So it's like it's always an education. So we're all we're dropping articles. They dropped. They know what their job is, so they're doing network. So there's there's one woman finally says, Hey, dude, do you realize that she's not responding to you at all? That she's, that this is for us And this she says, when I'm new to this community and I disagree with how she did things until I saw this. Now I understand why she does what she does, the way she does it. And you, sir, have convinced me that this works that what she's doing. And I was like, thank you. And I was done
\n Dr. Fleming: So they did the work for you. You didn't have to dio. Yeah,
\n Kim: They Mike. This community knows if you're not willing to make yourself uncomfortable, so I could be comfortable. I have absolutely no use for you. I could care less about my twitter following numbers because that means absolutely nothing. Because the majority got over 7000. I got maybe 100 people who who will engage the rest of them are parasites. And I tell them that all the time you're absolutely worthless to me. Your vampires. All you do is suck information from Black people, Black women, and you try to use it and and put in and repurpose it for yourself. Because white whiteness is not original. It always steals and and it never does as well as we do, eh? So I'm just, like, really just boom, boom, boom. So when I speak it like, I just spoke at the conference and it was like he noted, and the room was not full. And so the organizer was so upset it was in Milwaukee, like, where are you upset when you put my name on the thing? You should know that people have made a calculated thought If they know anything about my work, if they're gonna show up or not, because they know what's coming. And then I record everything. I usually record everything live on Twitter, so it scales that way. I could care less who was in this room because this needs I need to scale this stuff because it's just me and, and people get you have these people lockstep. So then you have the and I get on white women so bad. Oh, I get on white women so bad white feminism, but the ones who I'm not even gonna say get it because that's the wrong word. The ones who have learned how to engage they go. And they my one young ladies like, I know how to gather my white friends. I know how to gather my white people and and that's how we get this work done, and that's how we scale it. So I never want them to say that they're the experts. This is not your lived experience. Everything you've learned about racism, you've learned from a person who has a direct impact from racism. So never own this. All you're doing again. It's still in some stuff. And if you're gonna use it to benefit us all. That's fine. And the reason I stay optimistic in the space that I'm in is because tech touches everything. And once tech gets this right, all other industries, we're gonna have to change. And tech has to get this right because there's a risk management issue there. They're causing the economics. It's all about economics at this point. So you're gonna have to figure this out on DSO. Yeah, they're people who I'll go to somebody. Somebody sent me something. I go, I'm like, Oh, they already blocked me. I don't even know this.
\n Dr. Fleming: Isn't that something when you don't even know who it is? And they've done already brought you. But they know because they knew who you were.
\n Kim: Yes, but also Aziz, you know, as educated, though I can use as a teachable moment because what happens is you'll have someone I'll post something. I'm sure you have the same thing. Somebody comes in, wants to walk in with their little white self and say whatever they want to say. They get challenged, they get fragile, you know, fragile. They get their little feelings hurt. And I'm like, this ain't about your feelings. If you don't have feelings issue. You're gonna need to go talk to therapy. That ain't about my issue. And then the next, you know, few engagements. Oh, you're so mean. Why are you so hostile? I have a shirt that says I have had that causes the merchandise. One of the new shirt says, Flexibility. I'm not trying. I don't care about your feelings. And then it's so funny because how I ended is they have blocked me and I'll say, and I screenshot. I said, Job well done, everybody way. So it's a teachable moment. Yeah, it's a teachable moment because it shows that again they throw rocks and then they hide. You know, it's the whole stupidity thing, and and it's like I'm not dealing with y'all. Y'all are so ignorant. Y'all don't even know your own history, let alone trying to understand hours.
\n Dr. Fleming: Yeah, I mean, I recently ah, a little bit of a different thing, but related I I had to take a cab ride, a long cab ride, and the driver turned, you know, first he's He's like, you know, this white man in this like sixties or something and he starts talking and you know, he wants to know what I do, and I stay very vague. You know, sociologist anyway starts talking about little small talking. You know, he seems very pleasant. And, like we, we have different things in common, like we like the same parts of, you know, New York City and in the same kinds of food. And then the conversation turns to politics, and it turns out that he is. He's not just a Trump supporter. He's like a hard core evangelical. He and, you know, and I'm and I'm like, how can a Christian support Donald Trump? There's nothing Christian about him, and he and he he, like, takes a fence. He's like, No, no, he's he's he. What do you mean? I said, Well, what do you mean? And he's like, Well, you know, Israel. It's his stance on Israel, and I was like, That's it. That's all
\n Kim: That has nothing to do with. Like I said,
\n Dr. Fleming: Well, what's that got to do with be, anyway? So you know. So these air, his politics, anti immigrant, the whole nine yards right?
\n Kim: And
\n Dr. Fleming: And I just started chatting with him and I tell him I'm like, you know what I'm opposed toe Like everything you've described. I'm very against Donald Trump. But I'm gonna be honest with you. You rewind 20 years, even 15 years. I held beliefs that were more conservative than the ones that I have now. I said I had Thio learn a lot about our country's history of immigration because before I began to question it and I just started dropping different fax with him, I'm like, Do you know what happened in 17 90? And he's like, What do you mean? I was like, Well, 17, 90. We're just about 16, 14 years or so from the founding of the country from the War of Independence. And it's still a new country. Lots of undocumented people, lots of big problem. What are we gonna do with these undocumented people not paying taxes? That and I said, Do you know what our country's leadership decided to dio in 17 90 to deal with these undocumented people? And he doesn't know. And I said, Well, they decided to give them a pathway to citizenship. It's just one catch. They had to be white and they couldn't even just be white people. They had to be white men. This is the naturalization law of 17. 90 explicitly white supremacist. He doesn't know anything about it. This dude 20 minutes earlier had told me that you know his girlfriend is Chinese American. I think he was happy to tell me he's in this interracial relationship. That's OK. You're dating a Chinese woman. Do you know what happened in 18 80
\n Kim: Two?
\n Dr. Fleming: No, no. What happened? 18 82 while 18 82. That's the Chinese Exclusion Act. It's the Onley immigration law we've ever had that explicitly named a racial group that was no longer allowed to come to the country. I said that persisted for decades. It wasn't just a one off thing. And so I just go through and I'm pointing out to him and I'm like, Let's talk about the Native Americans, you know? And he's like, Oh, yeah, you know, that was wrong. That was genocide. Oh, yeah, it was genocide. It still is. And these borders you're trying to protect thing entire state of Texas with
\n Kim: Mexico
\n Dr. Fleming: On dso we started to, you know, and he I can't say that he had some major transformation, but by the end of it, he was thanking May, and he said, I have to study our history. I said Yes, I said we all dio But he was able to acknowledge that, to go back to what you were bringing up before. You know how you frame white supremacy and racism and whether you tell people that all whites are racist or whether you tell, tell them that they're all complicit in it or some combination of the two. I think what's most important is for people to have an understanding of racism, that systemic and that's grounded in an analysis of power and for me and listen, I totally respect the different Different people have different styles of a similar message, and different people need to hear different things. I find it more useful in my work for people themselves to recognize Oh, wait, Shit. I'm racist or oh, of course, you know I'm going to teach you that according to systemic, you know the meaning of systemic racism on Lee white. People can occupy that position now for the white person receiving that. I want them to be able to narrate themselves in that in that relationship and then they realized, Oh, that means I am complicity. Oh, OK. Because, as you know, one of the main you know, forms of racial stupidity that white people perpetuate is the notion that racism is just about your feelings or whether you're a nice person or a bad person, or whether your prejudice and racism is not prejudice. It's related, but it's not. That is a system of power. You know, that was by design set up to favor people defined as white on There's so much wrapped up in it. I mean, you have to teach people thio even understand that race is not essentially riel. That it was. It was an idea that was constructed at a specific point in history that that's related to capitalism, that that's related to colonialism so that I don't just want people to realize, oh, that white people are complicit and white supremacy. I want you to question what whiteness means. I want you toe learn about the history of white enough,
\n Kim: And that's when the reason I also deliberately because white folx don't like to be that group. They
\n Dr. Fleming: Just want to be an individual.
\n Kim: Yeah, but what? We're always group together. No one asked me what kind of Black I am right? And so I have gotten to what? What I do is because I wanna them. I want to erased as much of that outside conversation is they they will try to throw at you. So if there's Blackness, then there's whiteness. And so that's what I'm gonna talk about. Talk about Blackness, which is a group, and whiteness, which is a group. And that's how we're gonna do that until we could talk about individuals azan individual. Because it gets really in the reason. Another reason I do it that way. And and I told, That's why I like having these different, conversations. Because even when we're reading, the Kindy book, there's some things that I, challenge. And I talk about why I challenge him. Why I
\n Dr. Fleming: Haven't read the book. So you'll have to tell me what?
\n Kim: Oh, so he talks. He says that Black people can be racist. I don't
\n Dr. Fleming: That's not true.
\n Kim: Yeah, see, I don't believe that Black people racist,
\n Dr. Fleming: No Black but Black people can
\n Kim: Be racist ideas
\n Dr. Fleming: Exactly, but But they don't have the power. National power. I mean, They don't have the power to institutionalize their their bias exactly, though. So that Z I mean, that's kind of surprising, because I really liked the book stamp from the beginning.
\n Kim: Yes, yes.
\n Dr. Fleming: On DSO
\n Kim: I was I was struggling with that because I let my community No, I was struggling with it, and it took me to like, reading chapter, chapter three to say, OK, this is why I have the challenge with this because, we can be We can hate white people. We can do whatever, but we do not have the power to do anything about that in a systematic
\n Dr. Fleming: Level. I did not know. I mean, I told you haven't read the book. I did not know he really out there saying that Black people can be racist, that it's so
\n Kim: Violent. No,
\n Dr. Fleming: But that sentence has so much violence against it because I mean so much violence in it. Because that is literally what white supremacists and ordinary white racist you say they will use their fucked up idea of what racism means, which is not correct to say that anti Racists are actually racist.
\n Kim: So it's a
\n Dr. Fleming: Reverse racist. Exactly to say Oh, that's reverse racism. And that is so dangerous, that is, that's the kind of logic that leads to things like the FBI using the term Black identity extremist while not actually taking white supremacy seriously. So maybe I'd have to read the book to have a better understanding of what it means by that.
\n Kim: And so that's why I like having. I forgot where I was going with this, but that's why I like having these conversations, because one of the reasons I have this strong this stance is because I my audience, is face to face white people when I come into when I'm working as a business consultant or whatever, I need to again as a teacher to draw a strong line, because if I don't, they will challenge me, and I can never get anything done. That's one. And another thing is, I reckon, tell me how you do this because I recognize that I am educating the oppressor while I'm also being oppressed and I have toe actually process my trauma after after while working with them. So that's another reason I draw very clear lines, and so for me, this is and this is why I don't And I tell people this all the time. This is why I don't My clients are not people of color, particularly Black people. Because I can't. I don't have the bandwidth to process my oppression, process their oppression and get anything done. I just can't do it. So I leave that to some other folx. So I'm just gonna deal with because I can separate myself from from whiteness. I could just I could go in like, boom, boom, boom. This is what you're doing wrong. This is a hot why it's wrong. And this is what we need to do. I can separate that. And I could go home and go to sleep. If I'm dealing with dealing with the trauma of other Black people all day, I can I've tried it. It is just too much for me. This is why I cannot go to I can no longer look at videos. I do not watch movies like boys in the hood. Anything that could be looked like, Really. I cannot do it every if I'm watching something. It's an escapism because this work is it. These strategies helped me to be able to sustain his work and not pop white folx in the face every time I see him, eh? So how do you How do you Because this is I mean, I can is my work because I stumbled into it. You chose to e on and you've been doing it for 15
\n Dr. Fleming: Years. I did choose to do it. Sometimes I wonder. You know, I wonder about that choice. But now I'm deep in it s Oh, I can't do what you described and so far as drawing those strong boundaries. And, you know, like, I just focused on white people because my student, I teach at a majority minority university, first of all, so our students are incredibly diverse. And even the Black students, they're gonna have a big range in their ethnic identities and backgrounds on dso I Really Mm. I really approach my writing my work in my pedagogy from a perspective that on the one, it's kind of a blend two things that seem to be in contradiction. But for me, the well, maybe they are in contradiction. But, you know, that's kind of the thing about also being a woman. I can live. I can acknowledge paradoxes for existence. So on the one hand, yes, I will. When I'm talking about systemic racism and power relations, we're going to draw a boundary between the dominated group and the dominated. We're going to be clear about who benefits from white supremacy. So there's that boundary, or I think you could think of it as a distinction. On the other hand, and I totally hear you about the different kinds of emotional labor and trauma that's involved in, addressing these issues with Black folx and people of color versus addressing white folx. But on the other hand, part of what I find myself doing in my work as well eyes and I don't want to sound corny. But it's actually kind of a cornerstone of my worldview in my spirituality, because it's much as I'm like unapologetically, ah, Black queer, bisexual woman with the politics that I have. I also am very attuned to, ah kind of universalism. So by that I mean and it's it. It is kind of living in the midst of a paradox, because, I mean, I draw these, you know, identities and boundaries all the time in my work in my personal life, right? Like I'm very clear about that. But at the same time, if you know and it's also it's not just like philosophy and spirituality, it's like also my work as a sociologist. For me, there's something about the need to recognize that all of my identities, like there's something about who I am that supersedes all of that. If that makes sense, eso when When you when I interact with you or what I'm interacting with my students I'm going to see the social constructions I'm going to see are different position Ality is because of the reality of the power relations within which we live. But I'm also trying to stay alive to your being this and my being this beyond all this bullshit. And I'm without pretending that in this world you could ever actually be beyond it If you if you follow me because I'm not saying like some Kumbaya, we are all we all bleed. Reg, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that for me to do this work, in a way that doesn't leave me overly depleted. Although I'm often depleted taking, you know, intentional breaks from this topic is part of you know how I, you know, address my health, mental, physical, spiritual, health. But I But I do feel like I can't. I can't live within those boundaries all the time. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just can't like if, Like, I can't interact with white people as though they are really white.
\n Kim: Because
\n Dr. Fleming: I know you rewind the clock. 100 years, you're asked wasn't
\n Kim: Even
\n Dr. Fleming: Like, literally you were not. I mean, now you might have been considered white when it came to
\n Kim: Citizenship, but
\n Dr. Fleming: But there were other ways in which your whiteness was was being questioned. Because it was in a period of time and it was
\n Kim: The definition of what it was. It was more fluid. That s
\n Dr. Fleming: So I really have a problem with, you know, so called white anti racist who want to cleave to their whiteness as though it's really
\n Kim: Yes,
\n Dr. Fleming: Yes, it's politically and socially. Really? Yes. You have been socialized as white. You're socially recognized as white. But if you have not really I don't mean in a superficial way, but if on a deep level you have not gotten in touch with your humanity or you're being this beyond this bullshit idea of race and the invention of whiteness, then you are not. I mean, that's just really sad that you are not fully living your humanity's.
\n Kim: That's it. That's it. And that Z
\n Dr. Fleming: But it's so subtle because they're so I'm not saying what a lot of white people say with which they wanna. They wanna evade their social and political whiteness, right? They wanna be like, I'm not I'm not white or I'm not like them. No,
\n Kim: You are.
\n Dr. Fleming: But that can't be all of who you are.
\n Kim: Everyone in the HASHTAG called the same community shares the same common beliefs based on a set of four specific guiding principles. One tech is not neutral. Nor is it a political to intention. Without strategy is chaos. Three. Lack of inclusion is a risk and increasingly a crisis management issue. And lastly, but most importantly, four. We must prioritize the most vulnerable. To find out more about the guiding principles and adding them to your Twitter profile banner, please visit hashtag cause a scene dot com.
\n Dr. Fleming: No, you are.
\n Kim: But that can't be all of who you are. You are exactly. That's not the totality of you should
\n Dr. Fleming: Not be. It should not be.
\n Kim: Yeah, and I'm loving this conversation because I'm loving the juxtaposition because because what it does help the white audience. Who's listening? We're not amount of lift. We do this work, we do this work effectively where we are, and we do it differently. And And I wrote down here Black women. So although I don't I don't, like my client or my customer or whatever are not Black people. I tell people I do not speak for Black women, but I speak on behalf of Black women. So this is another reason I've detached myself from all like you can't fire me, the sponsors sponsors for my podcast or the people from community that give me $100 a month. Eso is like PBS because I don't want a Microsoft or Amazon saying You can't do that episode because when I speak every if they're Black women in that audience, I have told this white audience what it was like to write a email to your your sensitive ass on how much energy that takes Thio even to come up to you to say, Hey, you screwed that up because now it's about your feelings. And now you wanna cry. If I have not hit you, why the hell you crying is not My response is not our responsibility Had to deal with your emotions anymore. We're no longer your mammy's. Get off our teats. So when I finish talking, I got Black women coming up be crying and hugging because you're saying what they can't
\n Dr. Fleming: Say. Black women and girls who come up to me sometimes crying sometimes you know, not crying, but just so enthusiastic. You know, I think when you send to yourself in your own analysis, right, that's so powerful that so
\n Kim: Power. And that's why I That's why I take this approach because I'm coming. I'm in a space that is tech bro's to the hilt who don't respect anybody. And if I come in showing any kind and it's not a big about being being, fake because I was like this and tell people I was like this a two years old white supremacy just told me this wasn't how I was supposed to be. I had to get back to this, and so I'm that person is like, cut that shit out. We ain't doing that. We ain't doing that here. This is what If you wanna be here, you This is what you're gonna be. So we were at I was at the event this weekend, and it was a group of women of color talking. And these two white dudes were on the outside And hey, said something to one of the women of color. She came over and he's like, Oh, they feel underrepresented. I looked at him. I was like, I don't give a fuck because right there, he's like, I'm joking. That's not funny. What you've just done was First of all, you've just exactly, you've interrupted. And because this woman woman of color knows that that's usually her role. She now interjects herself and puts herself in a position to protect your whiteness. Dude, if you you don't have the If you don't have the balls to come over and start and come into this conversation, then you need to be on the outskirts because every conversation in tech is about U. S O. I come in the room and I'm just I turned myself up on 10 because I recognize that I have the privilege to do that so that other Black women don't have to do what I have to do so that, you know, when we come in the room if you like, have another conversation, do just what we haven't. Hey, just walks up and start talking to somebody else. I said, excuse you. Were you invited into this conversation? Civility is optional for white people, and it's expected behavior of people of color. And I'm not doing it anymore. And what I'm gonna do is be the walking, talking example and model for other people to say, Well, shit, if she ain't doing it right, that's right. You ain't gotta be is loud as me. You ain't got to do it like I do, but you can figure out a way to tell them. No, I'm not taking I'm not taking this
\n Dr. Fleming: Anymore. Yes, and that's where things get tricky, though, right? And I imagine you do this and you're well, I don't know that you do this in your work so much because your clients are white people. But a lot of times I'll give talks and you know, you've seen my book. And I mean, I have to say I think for an academic, my way of writing about these issues eyes a little more. I'll just say it's It's unusual compared to most academics. This is
\n Kim: Very much a layperson book.
\n Dr. Fleming: Well, it's it's kind of in between, right? I'm given a lot of history, a lot of sociology, but and their parts of the book that read academic. But then I also bring it on my own vernacular. I will drop enough. I I wanted to write the book I wanted to read, and I wanted to have the full range of my voice is but having before you
\n Kim: Before you go on, because what it reminds me what you just said is that putting yourself in that because one sentence that I've been want to talk about is the one. You This one statement, you said that you recognize that you with the path that you were on could be the same as Kanye Carson and Amorosa. Oh,
\n Dr. Fleming: Yeah. I mean, I you know, when I was younger, I was you mentioned the gifted program. I was tracked into that and, you know, second grade and So I was always the exceptional Andi. It wasn't clear to me that we lived in a society with systemic racism, sexism, all of that.
\n Kim: So I brought that up because that's to me when I get out of this book. It's the human you connect the academic with. I am a human and this is my experience. And so it's not abstract.
\n Dr. Fleming: Yeah, I mean, I tried that to bring it down to Earth. The thing that could get tricky. You know, your you work for yourself. I am a tenured academic, and so, as much as I do want folx to feel particularly Black folx and people of color to feel empowered by what I read and what what? What I write and speak At the same time, I have folx who come up to me after my talks or even in my classes, and they're like, How can I address white supremacy on my job or in this other class I'm taking? And it's not so simple, You know? I have, you know, family who work in different fields, you know, working finance and other things. And there are ways of going about it, right? But it z e Think one of the major take homes that I try to pass on and my teaching about systemic racism is that you can't address this stuff on your own, and this goes for white folx. But it especially goes for Black folx and people of color that if you are and you are, whether you realize it or not, if you are dealing with different aspects of systemic racism on your job or in your community, in your neighborhood to address it is not gonna be about what you do is an individual Onley. It's gonna have to involve a strategy. It's gonna have to involve building allies. It's gonna have to be something beyond yourself.
\n Kim: Coalition
\n Dr. Fleming: Coalition. So a lot of the work is figuring out who's your coalition. What are the resource is that can support you and sometimes, well, very often those resource is there gonna be difficult to identify? They may not even exist yet you might have to be a part of creating. The resource is to address the gaps that you have experienced,
\n Kim: And you what you're just communicated is exactly what hashtag cause a scene is about. It started because I got sick of people in tech talking about inclusion. And when they screwed up, people like me get harm. And so I was my friend and I at the end of 2017, I was like, You know what? I have nothing to lose. I just wanna be disruptive. I just wanna be And and we were like, Yeah, she's like, cause a scene were like, Oh, my God, hashtag cause a scene and that's what happened. So when I I was looking at going these conferences, I'm like, y'all don't know how to do conferences. Let me show you how to do conferences. So I did conferences for a while. So that's how the podcast started. Right now there's, ah, I'll be launching next year called the Alliance because we can't have it's called the Alliance that, anti racist tech agenda. Because we can't have these conversations on Twitter. We need a place where we can have these conversations so we can coalesce. Also, another thing we're that I'm launching is has had called the same job because people keep sending me jobs. But I'm not I'm not sharing that these people trust me. I don't know anything about your organization. You're gonna have to get a half that cause of seeing organization of certification. I need to know that you're safe place for me to send them to. And if you can't prove that to me, they know I'm not doing that. And so these So that's what I'm talking about. I'm creating my own thing. So? So another reason why my audience is white people just honestly, because I only deal with leadership because culture has to come from the top down. All these people pushing it from the bottom are stressing themselves out of work. If you're CEO. I was watching something with and I think it was the Eagles. Was it the Eagles? One of the football teams? he now they have, ah, autism. Agenda there supporting. They put in Ah, special room for autistic, fans who come and I'm just listening. I'm listening cause I know it's coming up sooner or later, and he the president of this football team has a brother who is autistic. And I was like, That's how that happened in no time because he decided that it was close to him every the culture change. It's not about Oh, how we don't know. You make the cultural change when you when it's something important to you you're talking about Let's talk about our i this you still you still recruiting and acting like we're making widgets? We're not making widgets. You don't give somebody Emmanuel and they make everybody's widget has to be the same because it has to be, Ah, universal. That goes into 1000 things. This is an information economy. You need your employees knowledge if they don't feel, safe enough to tell you anything because every time they open their mouth, they get somebody says something smart to them, they get these little things little cuts on their heart. You know, you can't say, Then they're gonna take their information with them, and you can't absolutely nothing in the information economy and a knowledge economy from them. You get no tacit knowledge from them and you can't scale that. That is that is what makes you competitive. That is what helps you to differentiate in this global economy. That's how I get up. I got to get your attention. But this is why eso like I have four guiding principles. Everything I do in hashtag college saying it's seen through this lands tech is not neutral. And intention, without strategies, chaos, lack of inclusion is a risk management issue. And we have to prioritize the most vulnerable. Because if you go to the people who are closest to the issue, they have the solutions.
\n Dr. Fleming: Have you talked Thio, Ruhollah Benjamin yet? Have
\n Kim: You? Ha ha ha! So funny. I'm glad you mentioned her. I just got invited to how Just got invited today to go to Harvard to. And I've been trying to get her on the podcast and forever. But how being in in Harvard November 2nd?
\n Dr. Fleming: Because the Siri's that they're having she's
\n Kim: Keynote. Exactly. And so she So I'll be interviewing her while I'm there.
\n Dr. Fleming: Yes, yes,
\n Kim: Yes, yes, yes. So exactly. I'm getting these because this is the work that needs to be done in this space. Oh, my God. This has been amazing.
\n Dr. Fleming: It has been. Thank you so much for having made
\n Kim: Any final words you like to share.
\n Dr. Fleming: I mean, sure, I don't know if your audience will agree, and I don't think you will. But I'll just throw it out there because I think it's, it's worth thinking about because you mentioned earlier that you're pretty optimistic about Tech and its ability to to deal with these issues.
\n Kim: Not yet. They're not there yet. E
\n Dr. Fleming: Have to be, You know, I hear you, but I have to be honest. I'm not optimistic about tech. Partly I read Shoshana Zubov's book The Age of Surveillance Capitalism. That's like this 800 page book. I read it this summer, and I'm teaching it in one of my classes on, but it's just, you know, the pace at which, these, you know, whether it's algorithmic technologies but also artificial intelligence, the pace at which they are progressing. I think it was a Google just a month ago announced that its you know, what is it quantum computing? And now it is advancing at a at a rate that's like exponentially beyond even Moore's law. Eso So because white supremacy, patriarchy and all of that is so deeply embedded in every aspect of our society, including tech, because tech is advancing at such a mind boggling rate, the technologically, you know, driven aspect of racism. White supremacy is moving so fast we can't even imagine some of the problems we're going to have just a few years from now, especially because it's so much about the bottom line and making, you know, white billionaires richer. So I think, you know, of course, that doesn't mean that there's not significant work that can't be done. You are part of this incredibly important work we need. I mean, you talk about scale, we need you scaled at the rate
\n Kim: Of quantum
\n Dr. Fleming: Computing. OK, on DSO it's so urgent that, people, for the kind of change and transformation that you are ah, part of bringing about because this is not shits and giggles. This is not so. We can, you know, twiddle our thumbs. You know, it's going to take some of these companies 5 to 10 years to institute policies that we needed 40 years ago. Eso again, Just final words in terms of the urgency and way beyond even what you think People listening You think you understand? No, you don't understand. It is so important. We need this change yesterday
\n Kim: And so I I don't disagree with you at all. I totally agree with everything you say. And why I remain optimistic is because I could give a fuck about a Facebook, Amazon or whatever. They're thousands of smaller companies who are feeling it right now. And who Who I can touch the leadership, and they're like, No, I don't want This is my legacy.
\n Dr. Fleming: Eso That's the
\n Kim: Coalition I'm building.
\n Dr. Fleming: Yeah, and we have to make change in the margins and in the areas where we can We can't necessarily change the whole goddamn
\n Kim: Exactly. Everybody always wants to focus on the Googles and Google in them that they already down that road on and it's gonna come to them at some point is gonna be a risk management issue that they ain't gonna be able to handle. And And in that time, I'm working with these groups that you know, you know, Let's come on. Let's keep because you got people in and you have people in, in these companies who like I'm gonna fuck up your cold basic. You keep doing this, you know, you know, So there's there's some sabotage going. There's a whole bunch of stuff going on. This is this is we got we until now. People are starting because what what? The reason it's I'm optimistic is because people told Facebook years ago that not allowing and Twitter that all languages, all speech is not equal and you need to stop doing it. You're only in a position of privilege that you think that's possible possible 10, 15 years later. They're feeling the impact of that. Nobody wants to be the next Facebook or Twitter on this, right? Right? And so that's why that's the only reason I get to do this work because normally they would like again before Trump. Nobody wanted to hear this.
\n Dr. Fleming: And now people realize there's a problem
\n Kim: Because now is a I said this and I'll end with this because people know I say this all the time. White supremacy is the parasite that's now eating on its host.
\n Dr. Fleming: Oh yes, that's a good place to end because it's very, very true.
\n Kim: Can thank you so much for you. Thank you so much. You have a wonderful day. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the HASHTAG called the Scene Podcast. And I'd like to thank all our current sponsors of the podcast and the hashtag called the seam movement off course. We strongly encourage everyone to become an individual sponsor of the HASHTAG called the same community. Just visit the website at HASHTAG called the scene dot com to sign up today on behalf of everyone here at HASHTAG called the scene, We'd like to thank you again for listening to today's show and have a wonderful day.