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\n Kim Crayton: E Tell me if you remember low telling if you remember. No way. Forget I'll never forget. Welcome to the hashtag called the scene podcast. The show focused on the strategic disruption of the status quo and technical organizations, communities and events E Hello, everyone. And welcome to today's episode of Hashtag cause a scene podcast on by today's guest is Telsey Pigs wise on before? Yeah, give it back a little background on this because this is interesting cause I actually forgot who you were because it came up in my county and I was like, Who the fuck is this good when you sit? Those articles I was like, Oh, God, I remember this because E did not even know you. My mom sent that article to me. The Facebook. I think that girl and I was like, Yes, and immediately I was like, Yes, and I didn't have a show idea at that time. I didn't even Yes, So it was just like I remember reaching out to you, saying, Oh, my God, Thank you for writing this, but, I didn't have a show idea, so I'm gonna leave that there, and I'm gonna let you introduce yourself.
\n Chelsea Higgs Wise: All right, So my name is Chelsea Higgs wise. I see all three names because I'm happily divorced. Eso I include my maiden name because I, like, drop my middle name and put that is my middle name when I did all that patriarchy stuff that tell you to do when you get married So But I do have a daughter. So I'm a momma, which is why I really do keep my last name because I want her to be identified with that because again, society tells us we're supposed to have all the same names and things. But I am a clinically trained social worker by trade, that kind of masters from BCU go rams here in Richmond, Virginia. And I have recently because we had some ridiculous things go on in our most recent presidential election. I then took my voice and started talking mawr about race and being a woman and how that really affected my work as a clinical social worker because I worked with the majority of women that are in the lower income range that are particularly on Medicaid because of their income. So ah, a little bit about me. That's my background. And but what I do now I'm a racial equity facilitator. Start taking this clinical skills. They're used for groups, and I walk around with people and let them know when they're saying racist narratives work them back. Thio Inequitable approach. So I dio writing political or cultural commentary with Harvey magazine, which is the articles that you mentioned, and I have a women in politics show on W. R. R 97.3. It's an independent radio station here in Richmond. You can catch them at W r r dot ord and I'm on all sorts of boards here in Richmond Volunteer, as well as appointed boards with the local CSB Mental Health Area and social and social services. So I have worked with a lot of politicians talking about things behind the scenes and organizing. I'm one of those folx that's really popping up everywhere. Just when I put out things like a white lady, tears and articles, people know that I'm not just coming from a place where I met orbiter, you know, angry Black woman coming over things.
\n Kim: Yeah,
\n Chelsea: So I spent a lot of time just validating my Black ass voice because a swimmin So I do that in a way. So when community leaders come to see these very causing a scene type of articles, they know that I am really coming from a place of starting conversation. So that is a long introduction about me. But, you know, I really say that I'm a community organizer and racial equity facilitator as well as a disruption starter.
\n Kim: So So I'm glad you said all that because Oh, my God, you hit on so many points because that's one reason I don't get the angry Black woman label because I come with data dumb. I come with a background, I come with research and so you can't hit me. And also because I stay in the economics and business space. You can't argue with me. You can't argue me, r o I. You can't argue with me on that. So yeah, on. I love having these conversations because I've chosen to stay out of the political space. I've chosen to stay out of those spaces because I just don't feel like having those kind of conversations. So I'm happy to have someone who's in that space and eso So we're gonna start with? Tell us why it's important to cause a scene and how you are specifically cause a scene and please get into these damn articles. Oh, my God.
\n Chelsea: OK, so why is it important to cause a scene? well, per history, especially for Black folx. Nothing. A change does not come without some type of radical crisis incident that will people usually frame it as a crisis. And that's how we get these conversations going. That's how we get people's attention. Attention span is so short, especially with social media and the Internet. Nowadays, stick and that will be viral quote unquote and get people talking for a while are really the big scene getters on DSO. The importance of that is because it brings awareness, it starts conversations, and it brings up topics that we wouldn't normally talk about unless there was that type of trauma that shock. Their people are not gonna be willing to shift or move on certain issues unless they can see the trauma. Like the heartbreak, the bad that's causing and really tap into their white guilt is what I'm saying. So that's why it's important to cause a scene because again. Historically, especially for minority folx, people of color, That is the catalyst to change. How am I causing the sea? Well, in 2015 is when I left my very affluent husbands and the county of Chesterfield here in Virginia. And everyone thought it was crazy because big, beautiful house that we built from the ground up having a Black man educated. We looked wonderful on paper. Girl,
\n Kim: I love I love that because I knew that was going to say way
\n Chelsea: Were the best. I mean, we did it and it was so disgusting. All of our family was like, Oh my gosh, all did it the right way. Not like other
\n Kim: Black people
\n Chelsea: Way didn't have any kids and the ones people were just so happy to see that we weren't doing this,
\n Kim: You know, played the white game and you did it the way they say It's a praise
\n Chelsea: On and, you know, I talk about my woke story for a while, but back then I have been going through all sorts of things. So at this point, that felt like I was doing the right things. I had all the people in my ear and and that sort of thing. So in 2015, when I had my daughter in 2014, she was one years old, and I really just knew I could not raise a daughter. Ah, female a Black woman and be in this space and be often so I left and I moved into the city with that not to a 900 square foot apartment with my Trans woman sibling. So my brother, who identify as as a trans woman, y'all So my am me husband and family.
\n Kim: You know, you heard me, you
\n Chelsea: People. That's why I married into So everybody thought I was nuts. They're like, Yo, she's not on Lee broke up their family, right? I'm now gonna expose my daughter to sexual acted, you know, homosexuality and men wearing dresses. And I moved to the city. And now So obviously I have a smaller house and not a two parent income. So obviously I'm not gonna be giving my daughter the best life possible. Like not all these things in my ear about how crazy I waas. And I just said, You know what? I'm so sick of hearing it and I got to the point where I went to Facebook and I caused the whole damn scene. I, because what happened really is my ex husband tried to use his money influences, and thanks. And take my daughter. He tried to get old custody. Well, I told you all that I am a full social worker and just a badass and the community. So of course, no judge is gonna do that to a mother, but that really triggered me. So I went to the Facebook, the book of faces, and I put my Black ass face on there and I said, I'm coming out the closet. Y'all not just about my sexuality. I don't Don't only like it, I like all
\n Kim: Of it.
\n Chelsea: I'm not a super Christian. I'm not Christian at all, actually. Leave in it. I'm also coming out the closet that I think this whole, white hoops switching. I got to do this for you and entering a room. And this color is, token role that you'll always putting my light skin acid is also bullshit.
\n Kim: Oh, my God. I e
\n Chelsea: Came out the closet for everything. People were just like, yo, Chelsea, you were telling you Hold truth, then I just couldn't take it anymore. So So then, got fired, Kind of. They asked me to resign from my very nice corporate job that I'd had just got a excellent award of the company. But because I started challenging that we were set up like a plantation, I because all the white people up in a big house and Ackman office, all my Black people, cause I was my light skinned ass was the only one up in the office, right? All my people I supervised were Black,
\n Kim: And they it was a house slave. Name was Samuel
\n Chelsea: Jackson. But no, no, but I wouldn't do that right, But I was saying I was I am light skin. I am articulate, traditionally educated, formally educated in this realm. And so when I walk in the room, I'm not as aggressive as, and I'm not threatening toe white folx. So I've been able to really play this role. And when all this happened, it also I took a big look in the mirror and said, I'm not living right. I don't even know how toe take the responsibility of this tokenism right now. So I don't know anything else but to speak out about it. And I got my Black ass fired. Which again? They couldn't really fire me because they had to ask me to resign. But, that's when I went and moved into working for Black women.
\n Kim: OK, I'm going to stop you right there, though. I want to pick up, but I want you to stop. I want to stop like that because that just hit me viscerally after you said it. The fact that for marginalized women are, let's say, Black women we're just gonna talk about with two Black women here for us to own our
\n Chelsea: Voices
\n Kim: Often jeopardizes our financial well being.
\n Chelsea: Absolutely.
\n Kim: And people don't fucking get that on. And they're wondering why. Well, I didn't have never heard this before. You haven't heard this shit before because people are fucking afraid of their jobs, their lives there, all of this shit. This is one reason I It's been a struggle working for myself, teaching this fucking community why they need because they're so clueless, why they need me and being underpaid, not paid or whatever. But it was a conscious choice because I never wanted privileged to have that kind of power over me, that leverage over me before I even knew how to articulate it. I just knew in my gut that I was going down a path that it was just in my best interest to not do that. And I want to stop because I didn't want us to go past that. People. It's the whole thing. Well, we've never heard this before. Why aren't they speaking out? Because it's dangerous to speak out
\n Chelsea: Right? And we are raised from a generation of Black folx that were taught. Look, take what you're given. Don't speak out because the wipe you will get there will be repercussions. Repercussions are definitely economic. No, we're not. We're not. Well, I'm not gonna say we're not gonna get hung, but, you know, they're They're outwardly violent things that are no longer happening. But what? But these don't even call him microaggressions because my pocketbook ain't nothing, micro.
\n Kim: Thank you. Thank you. When you're fucking with my economics. Didn't Yes, there's nothing
\n Chelsea: So but that it's a really interest. It's a really great point that you bring up Is that this type of oppression silencing our voices, especially for Black women who are educated and running the workforce that is really are the resistance against this progress there is by checking our pocketbooks. But it's also why Black women are the number like leading and starting businesses. Cellphone businesses. Now, yes, you have to be able to come into a room comfortable. We have to be able to speak our mind and like you said, even that cognitive cognitive dissonance that we don't even know what's going on. But we just feel out of body. That's because you don't belong that we are really been be a certain way. And But, you know, I'm so glad you stopped that because that really waas the economic piece of it. And thank goodness, because of my own privilege and being able Thio, go through the education, the journey that I've been on my experience, my connection to the community. I was not worried about my job because I had been doing so well and networking in my s. So I was able to get a job with Black women. And then from there we work with them for a year and a half, and they were awesome in that they continue to support me as I went to this community lens and I was really working heavy with politicians because this is before 2017 in Virginia we needed Thio Elect a Democratic governor. We need to elect a progressive governor and then ended up being a Democratic one, a Democrat so that in October of last year, 2017, I actually stopped, gave them my notice, plenty of time and just said I need to make my own path and started consulting and working for myself. So my disruptions will go back Thio the causing a scene. My cause is seen on Facebook When I came out to everybody, then transformed me really talking for the voices that felt like they didn't have a space. Because what happened as I got all the Dems, all the emails by a non binary people Atheists especially all I've really found my you know, nonbeliever community, thank God. Because here in Richmond, Virginia, if you Black, you better be Christian or you just out of luck. So it was really I got all these personal stories and connections of people that didn't feel comfortable commenting on my actual Facebook page, but worked around that. So I realized I had this space and this freedom because of my position that I could say things that a lot of people can't And these these very strategic, set up ways to oppress our voices or not by accident. Right s Oh, my causing a scene, then went from Facebook. I was found by, like, PBS news hour talking about things and was able to be featured there. And that's when our V A magazine found me and have been following and said, Hey, you've got some really, interesting narratives that you're putting out there on Facebook challenging certain things. Why don't you write about it? So my writing just started in December, which I'm really proud of because I think it's been a lane that I love and people like Well, what makes sure writer Well, because I've been doing clinical assessments on Black poor people for a really long time, and the only way I was able to get them qualify for any services or get them in a room was writing a story about them that made them seem human. Rather things portrayed and Black America. So writing stories and changing that narrative is very interesting to me. Because now, instead of just making people human and qualified for services a pretty story I get to really talk about the ugly truth of America's races as history. So, yeah, that's how I called the scene. And right now I'm actually working with a large, nonprofit as their narrative narrative change officer for a truth, racial healing, transformation grant. So I legit need to go to spaces and be like that's a really racist narrative. You should probably change
\n Kim: That. Oh, my God. Yeah, I
\n Chelsea: Get paid for it. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So yeah, that's how I'm
\n Kim: OK. So let's get back to hell. So the hold on just a second, Because I need to bring up the title. I know you know that, but so I'm in my I'm in my I wake up and my mom sends me, article opinion. Michelle Wolf's performance at the white House correspondents didn't is white. It's white lady goals. Eso I'm looking at the picture and I'm like, Oh, yeah. OK. Let me read it a a and I think I quoted so much shit out of your thing that I was like, I have to do, her Because I have to let her know the level at which this Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Because I just I just started talking about, OK, Pushing the envelope. So hashtag cause a scene was officially launched on International Women's Day with the talk that I did. Why aren't all women making gains in tech where I talk about the differences between underrepresented, which is about numbers and marginalized, which is about mistreatment and why white women are making gains and everybody else is falling behind. And you cannot say that white women are oppressed and tech. They're not. They're just the numbers are low. But there's a big difference. And and I talked about have a video where I talk about terms you shouldn't use, to describe us aggressive, intimidating, angry and all these things on. But I've been talking about, you know, white women, Black women's women of color, but specifically, Black women are beginning to our questioning when we don't even question anymore where we believe that you're a bigger enemy than the white man and that shocked the shit out of a lot of people.
\n Kim: It's the So I love that. It seems like in these various communities, Black women are now converging saying the same narrative so you cannot discount this. I did not know you before this. So my talking about white women's tears was not Do not influence you. You did not influence me. And it's and and and so Oh, my God. And then you get the but not all If one more person comes in my d m with all of us, but not all of us. So
\n Chelsea: Yes,
\n Kim: Like, But then if that's not you, then because if someone is talking about Black people being everybody on crack, I'm not gonna It ain't me. So I don't know there you're talking about E.
\n Chelsea: It is such the defense that they really are able to go to because they don't see themselves as a group. But they absolutely don't mind group And all the others, right?
\n Kim: Yeah,
\n Chelsea: Yeah, but white lady tears on De. So I was watching. Michelle was a two correspondents
\n Kim: And that shit was funny
\n Chelsea: To you. And it was so good. It was it was hilarious.
\n Kim: It was funny, E.
\n Chelsea: But the whole time I was up there and I was like, Man, what if all white women could just speak like this in front of who it like and she was doing especially in front of the room dominated by men, but then also the way she was able to confront another white woman, right? And that's what I really was impressed with was like, Look at her taking on a white woman that's more powerful than her more influential and has the backing of all white men. And that was so powerful for me. And I was like, Man, if white women and my local community to do that, that would save me so much time much her. And it might actually get me Thio even think about talking about your feminism a little bit.
\n Kim: Yes, you like the third conversation out here. When people say, you know what, we're gonna put that feminism thing on the back burner for a little bit because we need to talk about race,
\n Chelsea: Right, right, And that's always been right. So this is the third wave of feminism in the United States, and that has always been the case. And so the first wave of it, we absolutely got pushed onto the side because they realize Susan B. Anthony all realize that she collected and worked with Black women that they would not get the
\n Kim: Vote. OK, OK, stop. You could stop right there because you are in my fucking hair. You're saying my my talk. So this is what I'm talking about. This is what I'm saying. Guys, we're not We're not, I don't know you and having the same because I talked about it started with suffrage. It continue with the women's right and feminist movement when you said we were in a part of it and it's happening now. And the difference, though this time is although they're letting white women into tech because this is the area specifically talk about. They're not changing the culture for you. So you get in and you still get treated like shit,
\n Chelsea: Right? Right. And that's why a lot of people it's like it's no longer about just let us in the door. It's like in the world. Are you working with us understanding us and like and they're like, Well, we have to form all of this for you. And I said, No,
\n Kim: No, no, no, no,
\n Chelsea: No, no, no, no, no. You are forming this for American culture because basically, you're forming your culture around whiteness. And when you look at America, whether you that you want to or not, whether the media shows that or not whether you venture into the neighborhoods or not, American culture is filled with Blackness. In fact, we influence most pop culture. So it really is about me now. Third wave of feminism. I talk about taking up space
\n Kim: Girl if I don't get on the airplane and open my legs up. Why? Because little Dick is not that big. But it closed your legs. I used to tell people and this is crashed. But fucking this is my show. When women, when I was helping, when introduced women and helping them transition in the tech, they were so meek. And I was like, You got to go in a room like a white man jacking off all that matters is you. Yeah, You have to have that power poles don't work. Screw that shit. You got to go in there taking up space,
\n Chelsea: Right? Right taking up space, and that's how we have learned. It's just how we've learned to function. But that's also not fair. It's not OK that we have to go and conform and assimilate to you. But that's that stuff. It is so white women when they ask why Why aren't you all with my movement? Cause we still got trh Equal Rights Amendment Trumpers like people that are not only students Trumpers but they are fighting really hard for er a here in my local town. And so they came to my women of politics show, and afterwards they were just liking it. Well knows on the air to and I got really, really with them, you know, Why aren't Black women jumping on this er a movement in 2017. Things is when we have this conversation and I said, well, right now, we still don't feel like this is our
\n Kim: Cause
\n Chelsea: On there. Like how we're all one now. You know, they didn't say that, but it was that whole same thing. And so what I really started talking about is what their responsibility is of this woman's movement. We doing what we have to dio. But If you are looking for the help with the er a then you gotta You gotta really look internally on dso when I talk about taking up space because again, I hate the word microaggressions. That micro shit is bullet. This is way more than micro.
\n Kim: Is these air intentional, deliberate acts, right?
\n Chelsea: And if they're not intentional, deliberate there because you've been conditioned and you are not conscious sized to what you are doing
\n Kim: Because you've never had to consider anybody else in the equation.
\n Chelsea: And that's part of being conditioned to that. Once you understand and start talking about your unconscious bias, then you can start also start self evaluating about what type of space you take up and what space you are offering and providing for women that are lower on the human high arc social human hierarchy here in America than you. And yes, I don't think we should be on a hierarchy, you know. But of course we are because we started here with the institution of slavery. So working away, up with this intersections, so it's that whole question of, well, is a Black woman, e I just don't know like I feel like in certain spaces were still pretty equal. No, but no, just No, It doesn't matter how educated that woman is. That experience I e even want to say this. I don't do this, but yes. Oh, no,
\n Kim: No, no. Do not censor yourself.
\n Chelsea: Eso They want to give too much weight about my professional, something that happened today so anyone can identify them. But well learned Just this past week, I was talking to two women. One is white, one is Black and the white ones as Jewish. So she still identifies herself as, you know, oppressed in certain ways, especially during a faith, a faith perspective, But a Black woman. I was talking to them separately about experience, same experience, same level of skill. In fact, I would say the Black woman was especially. Her soft skills were extremely ridiculously high. But at these two women's resume, looking at them in the positions they had been offered and the positions they had played we're two totally different lives. Think this Black woman is used to being in the trenches as a one person team wearing 800 different hats and being underpaid and working her way up whereas a white woman was used to being able to teach as as a team the point where she asked me. I was like, Well, who will I be overseeing? That will help me. Oh, no. This is This is one person e ain't got no more staff with Black woman was just like I could
\n Kim: Get it done. A
\n Chelsea: Oh, yeah. Who else is gonna be like, You know, we will get it done, because that's what we do. You know,
\n Kim: That goes back to when you're talking about Oh, wrote a block post after the Alabama election, when everybody was giving Black women high five. I was like, You know what? Cut this shit out because all the fuck you did was pull Black women off the bench again to say some shit to fix some shit that y'all fucked up. And then you're gonna put our ass is back on the shelf into the next time you need our help,
\n Chelsea: Right? Right. And you wrote a Black post about it. I have RV a mag article about it.
\n Kim: It's
\n Chelsea: Because that's what's on our mind after we understand what we did like. Do you all understand what's going on. So, but yeah, So that type of support for a Black woman. So it really is that thing of taking up space. And yes, So no matter what on a human hierarchy, if you are Black, you are lower. If you're a Black woman, you are even lower. If you are a true Black woman, you are even lower. So it is a Black woman. I always make space for trans women with their in the room. I I talk about nine beer, non binary Black woman or Black people in the room is my turn to step aside. My brother that I spoke about is a trans woman, and he takes all pronounce. So y'all, I'd like to fuck with people a lot and go back and forth between he she just to mess with people and see how fluid that is. But truly so when he and I do, talks are in the room. So whatever, I always defer to him when talking about certain oppressive things, especially about L g B T Q Island. And that's what that voice goes. So white women. My call to you because I'm a light skin. I say that I am by racially biological by e. I am biologically bi racial and politically Black, white mama. But the world sees me as Black, azi Black. But white women see my very light skin, my articulation, and they feel safe with me for whatever goddamn reason. So I've taken on my responsibility to speak to these white women and say, Hey, it's your responsibility now to take whatever you here since you actually listen to Black Black women and talk to other white women in your white spaces Where you guys we know you all talk about Black people
\n Kim: Like, yeah, talking about
\n Chelsea: Eso in those spaces that What are you doing to progress? The conversation? And instead of just signing off Facebook or saying I don't have to do that like, what is your work? Instead of saying I'm not gonna talk to those friends anymore? What is your
\n Kim: OK? So you hit on something because you just said it. It's and I've been trying to figure out the example, and that's the great example. Oh, my God. I can't believe you voted for that person. Oh, my God. I can't believe you said that Oh, my God, I've been sitting at the Thanksgiving table for with you these years and I didn't know you had that opinion, So I'm just not going to speak to you anymore. And that's the difference between what I call an ally somebody who understands. But it's not goes up to the line of their discomfort and the power ally, which is someone with all capital letters, a power ally who is willing to make themselves uncomfortable so that I can be comfortable. And if you're not willing to that I have absolutely no use for you, and that's why I don't get into the feminism thing. That's why I don't talk about any. That's what I'm on trying to do my own thing because they're very few individuals who could do that. And I'm going to say I have have more white men in that space for me, then white women. And although I have some Cem, Cem, Cem, Stella, white women, I've deferred to white men more often because they've been the ones that have said, you know what, Kim, I don't get this, but I want to, but whatever you and it's not your responsibility, teach me, but whatever you need, let me know. Hello, All For many of you, 2020 has turned out to be the year that I've been waiting for the moment for you to realize that fundamental, systemic changes necessary for us to move forward as an inclusive society. Many of you have also realized the importance of protecting and supporting independent voices like my own enforcing this necessary change. This work requires independence because the status quo i e. Corporate blackface doesn't change when power, privilege and money can be leveraged against the truth. Which means that your financial support via becoming a hashtag cause a scene sponsor is required. Please visit hashtag called a scene dot com and become a monthly sponsor of the community. Thank you and have a wonderful day. Let me know. And they there are my legal white man and people think I'm joking when I say that. No, I have a league. Ah, fucking white man. We have a slack channel. And when I need shit when I'm doing that's what their their job is to make my life easier. If I'm willing to go ahead and do this work, I need people around me who are willing to take a hit for me. And if you're not willing to do that because as a white person what you're fit the level of discomfort you're feeling is nowhere near what I feel
\n Chelsea: Nowhere. And it's so funny that we really are the same
\n Kim: Person s.
\n Chelsea: Oh, I have a white lady reference list eso Whenever I talk to a white woman on bond, I just feel a dame hearing me. They're not to a certain readiness to talk to another Black woman like I really do understand that people's readiness and where they are is a thing. Eso if you're not ready to talk about race issues with a Black person because of your language, is just way the fuck off. Refer you to my white ladies.
\n Kim: I got I just got one. It also. Yes, you
\n Chelsea: Did. So I'm like, you know what, girl? Hold up. I got something for you to someone audio, and I refer them because I'm not gonna waste my energy, get filter off. But I'm also not gonna perpetuate this every Black female, aggressive thing to this woman that's reaching out. If they seem to be genuine right
\n Kim: There's a litmus test. It's a it's a test off. Are you Are you teachable? Right Open or are you centering this shit around you?
\n Chelsea: Right, right. And I usually definitely ask a certain question about Well, first off, the way you approach me tells me a lot, right? And number two, I usually ask some type of question of you know, what is your motivation? Toe learn mawr, And that tells me something else. So at that moment, that's my kind of litmus test, especially with my stuff is online, and I so I can't really get the face to face interaction with you, but yeah, and if they don't, they don't even answer that shit are say, hey, you know, good luck to you,
\n Kim: E I'll quit the drop because I've created so many videos, I'm quick to drop of video and then keep moving. I'm like, fucking I've said this before. I'm not saying it again. Now, if you need something beyond this that tells me you're interested and we can have a conversation, But But this right here, this is the bare minimum. This is the 101 It's already I've already done it. So you go do that and your level and and that's what people. Oh, I'm a ally. You don't get to call yourself an ally and
\n Chelsea: Sympathizers
\n Kim: Girl girl. And if somebody else called me, they don't even use the term ally they use advocate. But my term, my thing, for it is whatever term you use, it's about demonstration. It's not about words about you have to demonstrate behavior, and then the people who you're working on behalf of, we get to tell you if you're successful or not, I get so sick of people like, Oh, we were brought women in. So we checked that box now available. No, no. How many of those women are still there? First of all, how many of those women are white? and all these other things you don't get to check that box, we tell you. Oh, you can check that box. But what they say in law but in court. But I reserve the right to come back to that list. That s
\n Chelsea: Exactly
\n Kim: Because it's always is ongoing. There is no stopping point. And that's listening Shit that really gets on my nerves with this. Everybody's looking for a simple solution to these very complex root. It's deeply rooted in our culture, and everybody wants to just Oh, Kim, do you have a, everybody wants some. Damn. Oh, my God. Some kind of template. So, do you have an inclusion? No, I don't. Because each organization, each community, each person is different,
\n Chelsea: Right? They are. That's intersectionality, right? That's the whole thing about this is that there's so many different parts of us that makes us very different. Even we talk about Black people. There's a whole range
\n Kim: Of Black girl, you
\n Chelsea: Know. So but yeah, I definitely I feel like white ladies don't want to cause a scene, right, Because they are conditioned, not your white ladies are supposed thio
\n Kim: And that I've had a conversation with somebody about that because they she was trying to understand and she said, Wow, she never really understood that they've been so conditioned to be the vessel of white purity that that when I've seen this at conferences and I didn't understand it until like these conversations because at a tech conference ah, person of color, particularly Black person can get up and have a tech, a technical talk and they get fairly on the Martin majority of the time, they they'll get questions that makes sense. White men tear white women's asked up. When they give a technical talk girl, they ask them questions and got shit to do what they talk. Shit, I mean, all out of the scope just to prove that they're out of their place. Wow. And so I get it.
\n Chelsea: Yeah,
\n Kim: Bond. So that also tells me that you can't get there by yourself either.
\n Chelsea: Oh, right.
\n Kim: We got to get that together.
\n Chelsea: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. And that's why. Gosh, girl, I know you're gonna know this, but like, it was like when you when I talked to white women and we talk about, like, the workplace and they're like, Well, Black men have it way better than white women in the workplace. And then it goes back to that conversation of, you know, male privilege and things like that. And to be honest, I don't I can have feelings about it, but I'm not going thio comfort your white fragility at all by saying that you have it so hard, just not going to do that s so It's one of those things, too. Especially we're talking about women in the workplace like they come tow us looking for support Black women Because a lot of times they feel like they've been pushed down by a Black man in the space. And
\n Kim: If you know, but then they'll turn on us in a minute. Oh,
\n Chelsea: In a hot minute, Quickly. That's what they dio, right? So it is really by themselves, and they can't do it by themselves. And that's why when if you aren't creating a scene yourself, you've got to support those that are brave enough, right? Because I understand we talked about the economic justice like that, he says, for women like way. So if you are in a space that you cannot do that, then make sure you are supporting that voice some type of way, and whether that's you given money,
\n Kim: You know, I'm gonna stop you right there. I'm saying it's not whether it needs to do that. And something else.
\n Chelsea: Yeah,
\n Kim: Money needs to be. It's not either, or you don't get an option. Money needs to be first. And then you can choose something else if you to do so because
\n Chelsea: Yes.
\n Kim: Yeah,
\n Chelsea: Yeah, and so I really you know, it's It's just like the conversations of, you know, I don't donate my time to this anymore. Like, if you want me to come talk about this with your white oaks, guess what you're gonna
\n Kim: Dio. It is amazing how they think this shit is free. I think this is not slavery. This we move past that way, and I have access to the same platforms as you have. So you either give me the platform by paying for Oh, I create my own platform and calling your ass out. And you really ain't gonna like that,
\n Chelsea: Right? No. And it really is that piece of we're creating a whole cultural curriculum for people when we come and we start talking
\n Kim: About I like that term
\n Chelsea: Cultural. Yeah, that's how I charge girl, you gotta go take it on. But it really is that peace and I even had to talk to a lot of my publications. The white people, like my RV magazine, is owned by white people. So and the new station is the radio station is mostly white people. So it's It's always this point of you guys gotta not just value to be like, Oh, we got a Black person. But how are you taking? Evaluate my content and for your readers or listeners. So, yeah, pay your money your time and again, even especially in those white spaces. And you should be a za progressive. If you call yourself a progressive white lady, you and it's a white space and there's no person of color in there. Then you should taking up the most space in there in order to push this message forward. And that's how we make movement is we have to take up more space. But again, the Black folx are around,
\n Kim: You know what the fuck up?
\n Chelsea: Then you shut the hell up and let them trickle up. We know Trickle. Nothing works way thought we get to the bottom of who is disenfranchised or oppress the most. And we let that voice be the
\n Kim: Loudest. Yeah, it's so funny because I've started laughing and I was trying to hold it in because, you see, when you were talking about the economic part, it just sounded to like It's time for the ties way need to pay your 10%. It is
\n Chelsea: Way, 10% around the glass, the hat, whatever. It is good in church all but go ahead and pay your money. Yes, it should be, though. Like I and I want Black women to start being comfortable saying that, so that that will be the message
\n Kim: That they and and again I'm loving how we're all converging Because what it does is normalized these conversations so that people are jobs are less threatened, and if they are, they have, they have a you know, just like in law. We have precedence of this is what people are doing this. And why are you firing me because of this thing? This is the presidents of this, and that's one reason I love the conference. When I came up with this conference, I had no idea how impactful it would be. But Thio provide a safe space for marginalized particular, underrepresented or marginalized. Particular individuals tell their stories uncensored, as authentically and transparently as they want to, as long as they're not attacking. The audience was so profoundly moving for me and very cathartic for people in the not only the speakers but also the attendees. Because it's speaker focus. It is about your here to hear their stories. You're not here, Thio. Test them. You're not here to think your next. If you do that, then you will be ejected based on my and only person gets the arbitrate that is me. So, just about the power off having the feeling safe enough to tell your story?
\n Chelsea: Yeah,
\n Kim: It is so
\n Chelsea: Profound. It's so profound. And so what I'm actually doing in this equity work because I work for the big grant that I work for a racial near racial equity Facilitator is white owned eso what I'm actually doing now just by because we need it is I'm meeting other Black women that are in this space as the Black face of certain companies as we work in the region in this area, and we always caucus like afterwards, right? You know, Black folx. Yeah, and then it's like, yo, these white folx eso now, in this space, we are actually supporting, like, forming a support group just to get together to support each other and and these Black nonprofits and it's nonprofit space and white people. But we are the Black faces, right? So we've got to do that. That's something else we created.
\n Kim: But I just
\n Chelsea: Go ahead. Were also happening in this is that we're our networking is now
\n Kim: Off this. That's exactly that's what I was just about to say because I just had that conversation that two hours ago with someone who reached out to me who's in the same space. And I was like, I really want to create a plateau somewhere because I'm so sick of getting slack groups and people talk and not doing anything. But I wanna be a being a part of a group of people like us who are actually doing something so we can multiply. Our resource is and actually really take this Thio and it's take this to the next level. And it's not about competition. Everybody has their nish. Everybody has their special thing. But you giving me the term cultural curriculum just help me right then, because I'm about to help me to put a name on how toe how toe ver bitch what this thing is? Yeah,
\n Chelsea: And and like a soon as you said like girl, take it like that Z competition to this. Like there we every single person has something special about them. So there we there is no competition cardi B But I'm accomplished with myself. You know what I mean? It really is also a thing of valuing that voice because again, Black women especially Black women, women in general, especially Black women we have addition Thio Thio, compete with one another Thio slack each other down because there's only been one or two spots, right? And instead of speaking out about why there aren't more
\n Kim: Spots, that's
\n Chelsea: Exactly each other down eso We've
\n Kim: Been playing that game We've been playing a game that we were never intended to participate in. It was the rules were not made for us on dso we've been told Hey, if you do it this way, you'll get a chance. But we're only given two slots So y'all got a battle this shit out and whoever whoever comes on top But then the two, the two who come on top for those two slots you have no respect cause now you're aggressive and you're intimidating you all these others So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't
\n Chelsea: Right now you're right. So it really you know, we just have to recognize that like the more conscious we are, that the better we can combat it. And we're conscious about it when we are talking about it. And when we are paying attention to the scenes that are caused right, causing these scenes, it's because people are acting out, right. They're not. They're sending you a message. I talked about this a lot of times As a mental health worker. I worked a lot of people that are nonverbal, so people with autism that maybe can't speak have these behaviors of head banging. That's that's crazy because they're trying to send a message. They're hungry. They're frustrated. They're mad. They
\n Kim: You changed a damn schedule. Yeah, exactly.
\n Chelsea: So they're sending their message. So if somebody is out there causing a scene, it's because they're sending a message. So let's talk about it and let's try and understand. If I don't if I don't understand what is going on, then I need to do the due diligence of that. So the causing of the scene is really I mean, it's the catalyst of how we get going, but everybody can participate. E don't think that you're not involved in this white people lightly,
\n Kim: And that's what I've been telling people. Everything doesn't have to be some big grand gesture just by Retweeting. Something you and I say is because it gets out to another person. It's that's the beginning start and and that's the that's you might get, because it might be a tweet that your your followers are not used to you having. So they may question it. But eso what their online, How many of these people you actually know in your real life? And so you just keep moving, you know, we all have. That's the whole thing is like stop. For the first time, Black women is saying we're not taking the burden. You're taking time. I'm I bet in my early thirties said I am no longer because, oh who? The system. This privilege system has set it up for a white women to where the angry Black woman or the independent Black woman badge as of honor. So we internalize that and we fight for it. We fight to be seen as independent. We fight for the I threw that shit away and said, Screw that I am a human being. I am a multi dimensional human being with flaws and feelings like anybody else, and I'm no longer gonna hide that. So at times I create videos when I'm frustrated because I'm with, I'm crying. So people need to see that that women need to see that it's OK to cry in these spaces. It's OK to be multidimensional. Yep.
\n Chelsea: Oh, and so we talk about like white Lady tears. I want to give a big shout out to Brittney Cooper. She's a Black feminist professor over at Rutgers University that wrote the book Eloquent Rage that I was reading a couple months ago or in April when it came out. And it really talks about the power of white lady tears that all comes about because of the privilege that comes with being a white lady and that whole angelic innocents spoke about before. If that image is crying thing, that means something's wrong with So number one, you know, asking white women light ladies like, how have you used white lady tears in the past? Because you had number two, like recognizing the power of those tears. I'm not telling you. Never use them again. Just use them for good. And as I really appreciate about Michelle Wolf and I quoted my article is about, she knew she was white, even though a lot of people are like, Oh, she looks a little brown No, she got freckles. So she's white and she was like, I was white because I could cry my way out of a parking ticket cry my way out of a murder charge. So the power of that comes and recognizing our own privilege, and I do this with white women all the time. I even talked about my privilege. Like Ideo. I recognize that that maybe it will make you feel better. Exactly. It's about your own stuff, like and yet everybody has privilege, some sort of on. But
\n Kim: That's why I I define privileged as equal to access. It's not about race or gender, because if I goto another country privilege won't be Black and white. It'll be whatever the privileged. So every every culture has privilege. I used those damn monkeys that are injured. Have you seen the monkeys that everybody always shows that in the winter? And in Japan they're getting this hot spring. The little white monkeys with the red faces s o they get in these white springs. I mean, it's hot springs in this, and it's like snow is coming down and people like, Oh, that's cute. Until I watched a damn. And David Edinburgh, nature study and what it said, What it actually is is there's a matriarch family that's allowed in the hot springs, and everybody and all the other monkeys that are not a part of this family have to stand outside the pool and hopefully not freeze to death. And they're actually yes, girl. And they're actually other monkeys who guard the edge of the pool trying to engender themselves to become so they can get at least put a toe in. So this is nature. This is human nature, not personal. It's a you know,
\n Chelsea: Darwin. Darwin told us. Yes. Yeah, I mean, he said not everybody is made to survive like there. That is the point of that. So
\n Kim: But I could tell you Black folx, because we don't been through some shit and we just keep coming back. We Resilience Hill.
\n Chelsea: Yo, eso I'm gonna tell everybody right now. I am in my office setting my door closed. I would probably be yelling and screaming on this door. But yeah, we are Black. People are paying to survive, which again tells me that we must be the fittest by Darwin's definition. Yeah, really?
\n Kim: And that's what that's what I feel. Well, I've heard also. But I know is what's frightening for white people, particularly that so many of them well, you've been telling Blacks and people of color to go get these degrees and get these experiences. When we come in, we gonna show your ass that you're just mediocre. You're not what you think you are. And so that's now putting your economics in danger because we are resilient as
\n Chelsea: Fuck we are. Do you know that middle class, middle aged white men that do not have a college degree are the highest? Are killing themselves at the highest rate? Whether that be by suicide or substance abuse?
\n Kim: I can believe it. But can you explain why?
\n Chelsea: Yeah, well, it's still a theory out there. This is kind of just it's just come out theory about why I have a theory about why, but it's just a really interesting case that somebody that is proceed with so much privilege, which goes where I'm making a point to what you said, could be so unhappy that they were killing themselves. Eso like why? Well, it's kind of what you said about this access piece of white mentally, not middle aged white men, middle class with no college degree are have less community than Black folx do. Because we folx we'd be sticking together. This that's how we make it. But then they also see that intersection of income and access to their lack of education and because they were sold on the dream, they said, You're white, you're a man, you just go
\n Kim: Get you. You have a good old life. Yeah, And then they hit their ceiling and they don't know it. And that's the eso. You're in the Virginia area, and this is Give me this is against me. Anybody and again. I'm not a political. I don't get in there. But anybody who believed any politician and setting them damn cold jobs coming back, you got sold a bill to goddamn goods. Anybody who believe that carrier was not going to take them jobs in Mexico, you got sold a bill of goods because if you knew anything about how, corporate shareholders work. If there isn't on opportunity, Thio put more money into shareholders pockets, and the CEO and the board of directors do not do that. They will be sued so that all this believing in what these people are telling you without doing your own research is what has gotten us here because and making you think were the enemy. We're not the enemy you just not as equipped for. And this is what's getting. This is why I need to have this conversation, because how they put others and quotes with with the the speed and the complexity of technology that's coming So many of you are others. Baby,
\n Chelsea: The
\n Kim: Robot to come in and and and these damn jobs that were we have moved from an industrial economy to an information economy. If you cannot turn information into knowledge to leverage that, that's not like fucking soft skills. I don't have fucking soft skills. I have human centric skills that most of you don't have. That air will develop and cannot be replaced by a robot or a computer. Right,
\n Chelsea: Right, right. No, and and that really like you said, Yeah, you're absolutely right of they're not ready. They're not equipped. And they were sold this life so they don't know what to do, because Oh,
\n Kim: My God. You just Although this is OK, this is I need to remember this privilege is not a system that aligns well with technology. Who in that deep I just had that I need to write that down because because it does not technology does not care about your privilege. It has no. And so unless you can hold onto the ability to create technology and and put biases or whatever to sway it towards you, technology does not care if you're Black, Asian, white, hard of hearing transgender, they it does not care. It's equal to all of us until humans go in and fuck with the programming. Right?
\n Chelsea: But that's that. That's so good. Because to,
\n Kim: Oh, my God, that's profound. OK, it's really good. It's
\n Chelsea: Really a big reason why my mama put me in swimming and she said, You know what? No one can ever say. Like, argue with your time, because if your time, if you're the fastest, you're the fastest. No,
\n Kim: With that based on your race exactly, and that's why I don't. That's why I talk about research and data and business, because I didn't as a Black woman from Atlanta did not wanna have a political conversation with you or moral conversation with you about these issues. But when I put on when I show you, research is consistently that diverse teams, or innovative and able to differentiate and a competitive more competitive on the on a capitalist society. You can't argue with that, right?
\n Chelsea: Right. And it's the same thing I'm doing right now with my grant is I'm creating data and capturing data racial equity, right? That, like, why hiring with a racial equitable limbs is profitable for corporations?
\n Kim: Exactly. That's doing that. And they're gonna listen to exact because all this and, girl, this is what gets me. Because all these, like to just came out about the NFL is gonna find these people for taking me. OK, People do not agree with me, but I don't care. Take a knee me to Black lives letter. All these things do not have a strategy, their outrage and they're there and their reactive. The reason that they could now come and say they're gonna find you is because you've given these white owners the opportunity to develop a strategy against your outrage. Who's talking about this until the football season comes up again about taking a nobody,
\n Chelsea: Right? Well, and it goes right back to the whole conversation of this economic justice. Peace. That's straight to the players. Pocketbooks. Yes, that's their wallets. But you know, because they know that's how to control the Black boys. Yes, y'all that Zoe OK, that's why he got shot. He started talking about money. Yes, about the poor people's campaign. It wasn't just about voting anymore,
\n Kim: And also he has. And this is what I love when white people bring up MLK because they always get him stuck right at the march on Washington, and I always like to put when they do that, I said I dropped this right here. Our interview he did with CBS News 11 months before he died. When he talks about yes, girl, when he talks about you know what I did my community, this service, I was naive and I told them to go into a burning house. It is it is unfair and unjust to tell a man of man to pull itself up by the bootstraps when he has no boots. But he's
\n Chelsea: Got no shoestring shoestring.
\n Kim: So he said, Boots, babies. You said it's hard to tell somebody pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they have no
\n Chelsea: Boots. Yeah,
\n Kim: And so and so this is the These are the conversations we need to have. And I thank you. So Oh, my God, This has been made.
\n Chelsea: No, this was this was so good. And I mean, just thio The whole reason why we started talking about this was because the article and then I got a whole bunch of white ladies talking to me, and I got a whole bunch of backlash. And then I ended up writing an article about what happened after
\n Kim: That,
\n Chelsea: And that's when. But my story about how I got harassed really did the door toe white people listening, even mawr. So it was like a set up of This is why you should talk to each other. But look, what happens when a Black woman does talk about it. I get all this backlash, But you know what? You could help with white people. This
\n Kim: Backlash exactly and that's what I've seen. Also, I stepped in to help a friend this past week about the situation. And when white people are seeing their like, Damn these people in line, this just shit is like, Why the fuck did we make this up? No, but trying to just get attention like, No, I'm not doing this, Thio. I'm not doing this for the money. This is you know, Kim's doing this because she wants toe. Oh, somebody said that I'm doing this because it's a PR stunt, baby, There are so much more I could do with my life to get get pressed.
\n Chelsea: Hello? Hello? And you know so just I did. I made the example about a white ladies, but I do hold that true for all groups like body that looks like you that you can identify with only the person, the type of person you should talk to first when you're going crossing these cultures like this like so Black men if they when they got problems with me talking about toxic masculinity, girl, Yeah,
\n Kim: We'll go ahead and you will have to come back.
\n Chelsea: E send them to awoke ass Man E could have that conversation with them because you're not gonna trigger me. Yeah, it could be all types of hos and bitches when I get mad at eso. Yeah, it is. It's a thing, girl. So I just tell folx go out talking to somebody, get the conversation going because nobody can do this alone.
\n Kim: Exactly. We have to get there together, and I want I want to end on the point that listeners Weah's white women are having these conversations and are being attacked.
\n Chelsea: It's Black and white women. Oh, yeah. Starting over. So they hear.
\n Kim: Yes. Damn, I bullshit. We as a Black women are having these conversations on behalf of all of us because an inclusive community organizations benefits us all. And we're being attacked. You're not doing enough If you look at that and walk away,
\n Chelsea: Right, you're not doing
\n Kim: Enough. So I'm gonna tell you this here.
\n Chelsea: This is it. Yeah,
\n Kim: Either step up to the plate. I'll get the fuck out of my way on.
\n Chelsea: Don't call yourself an ally. Don't call it progressive.
\n Kim: Call yourself nothing but privileged eso on that note. I e 00
\n Chelsea: Thank you so much to you, Kim And for this podcast at me, this is a great a great idea theme that really talk about what causes the scene is important too. And thanks to all your listeners,
\n Kim: Thank you so much.
\n Chelsea: Follow me. Come follow me. Chelsea hates wise and everything. Chelsea H r via on Twitter. I'm all the Facebooks and instagram too.
\n Kim: All right. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the HASHTAG called the Scene Podcast. And I'd like to thank all our current sponsors of the podcast and the hashtag called the scene movement off course. We strongly encourage everyone to become an individual sponsor of the hashtag called the scene community. Just visit the website at hashtag called the scene dot com to sign up today on behalf of everyone here at hashtag called the scene. We'd like to thank you again for listening to today's show and have a wonderful day. Hi. Hi,